Are online ANP degrees destroying our credibility?

zenman · Jun 22, 2014

"Educational?" Must be drinking right now!

zenman · Jun 22, 2014

vs the PA route: Very expensive, Extremely Difficult, only the truely elite get in.

As someone who precepts PA's I wouldn't put this in stone.

futureeastcoastNP · Jun 23, 2014

As someone who precepts PA's I wouldn't put this in stone.

I agree...but it's certainly not like NP schools. Pretty much ALL physician assistant programs are competitive to an extent. Unlike with NP programs, a hopeful PA cannot simply give up and sign up for a for profit program that doesn't even require an admissions test or interview.

MrLungvent · Jun 23, 2014

"vs the PA route: Very expensive, Extremely Difficult, only the truely elite get in."

Of course NOT,....you dont put that in stone...........

It goes on Paper lol

But in theory, very limited # of slots for grad students (like 20-25 maybe) for every 500+ applicants , a high GPA, clinical hours, letters of reference, and maybe GRE's all are required to even a shot to get into most programs

There's no more convienient track with an Online PA degree as they dont exist

When your an aspiring NP or PA....debating on which route to take,,,, i'd say it's way more convienient and easier to be an NP than PA because theres a slightly lower admisson standatd, and you're only competeting with

RN

's, plus some programs are online or hybrid, and idk if they cap admissions numbers or not?

MrLungvent · Jun 23, 2014

As I said, it's the individual who makes the clinican, not the GPA, stats etc.....

If you go on some PA forums, they'll talk about "stats"...what are your stats when you got in??

Well your stats could be : 3.95 GPA in B.S in Biological Sciences with a Pre Med Concentration and an M.S in Biology from pretigious schools, and you can have well over 10,000 hours of Patient Care Exposure as an EMT or Paramedic, and outstanding letters of reference and blow away the interview..on paper, this looks good

But if you're not a good clinical person, if you cant take info on paper and apply it to the clinical.....good luck , I hope you have great malpractice insurance.

futureeastcoastNP · Jun 23, 2014

Speaking of for profits, here is what Walden University (a for profit) says about job placement of graduates:

What are my chances of getting a job when I graduate?

The job placement rate for students who completed this program in 2012-2013 is *%.

* This institution is not currently required to calculate a job placement rate for program completers.

Isn't it nice to know that because they aren't REQUIRED to calculate job placement that they don't? A school should be compeltely honest with future students, whether required to or not. The for profits are destroying NP credibility, completely.

Julia77 · Jun 24, 2014

This is a bit off topic.

Just want to acknowledge that I've read lots of points of view here and am not asking for a recap.

If YOU were or are a student NP with a DE program, what would you/do you say to colleagues in response to there questions in this negative direction (described in detail above) -- such as "Do online programs really prepare you to the same level as traditional school?"

Yes, I could provide them with a 4 page essay on it, yes I hear some great perspectives, but do any of you have a quick, to the point, informative, professional answer?

TIA

Julia

futureeastcoastNP · Jun 24, 2014

This is a bit off topic.
Just want to acknowledge that I've read lots of points of view here and am not asking for a recap.
If YOU were or are a student NP with a DE program, what would you/do you say to colleagues in response to there questions in this negative direction (described in detail above) -- such as "Do online programs really prepare you to the same level as traditional school?"
Yes, I could provide them with a 4 page essay on it, yes I hear some great perspectives, but do any of you have a quick, to the point, informative, professional answer?
TIA
Julia

If you're talking about for profit programs, there is nothing you can say.

If you are talking about online reputable NP programs, such as Vanderbilt or Frontier or Georgetown, simply say:

"We only take the didactic portion online. We get the same lectures as on campus students, we simply listen to them at home instead of in person. We are held to the same standards, take the same exams, and complete the same assignments. We go to campus for lab sessions, just like on campus students, except we do it in blocks instead of each week. Clinical rotations, where the majority of information is learned, is no different for an online student than an on campus student. We spend the same amount of hours with an NP or MD preceptor."

I don't think outcomes for online students should be any different than for on campus students. Many medical students watch their lectures online and come to campus for exams and labs. The only thing that gives online education a bad name is that it is being taken over by for profit programs (because online is cheaper and they only care about profit) that have documented issues, no admissions standards, and graduate far too many students each year.

stickit34 · Jun 24, 2014

This is just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.

I do not think online programs are necessarily the problem. I believe that the real culprit are the governing bodies who determine accreditation for schools (AACN, etc.) If you examine the policies determining what program is up for accreditation, the AACN requires a core curriculum of advanced pharmacology, advanced pathophysiology and advanced health assessment (http://www.aacn.nche.edu/ccne-accreditation/Standards-Amended-2013.pdf, page 16). The policies governing NP education are much more lenient than the PA policies see (http://www.arc-pa.org/documents/AccredManual%204th%20edition%20Dec%202013%20FNL.pdf, page 43 onward to be specific). I don't where the leniency is coming from, maybe from the notion that the BSN degree properly prepared graduates? No offense, but fluffy classes involving leadership in nursing and whatnot did not help me prepare for a master's degree. If we want to be considered as adequate as PAs, we should have the same backgrounds academically. It won't hurt to learn physics, organic chemistry, etc. And while RN experience is all well and good, it highly variable. One RN may have dove deep into her practice, took every opportunity to learn and worked hard every day. And then you could have another RN who has had years of "experience" and stayed stagnant, doesn't attempt to learn and hardly manages to get her work done. I can see where doubt can grow.

I think a major overhaul of the accreditation bodies needs to be done. If they can raise the level and curriculum, then I'll say it's okay. Until then, I'll have doubt. But that's just me.

Julia77 · Jun 24, 2014

For futureeastcoastNP...yes, I am attending a not for profit, old, respected, DE school. I am satisfied with the amount of face-to-face, in-person clinicals and lab classes. I am not planning to comment further on the school because of my interest in having some anonymity.

I agree with the perception that PA education is more rigorous in some important regards than NP, and one of my hopes for the future, including continuing to do my own self study to improve, is to work to improve NP education -- more classes with clearer clinical benefit (Differential Diagnosis class, for example) and less nursing theory and nursing theory paper writing. Having said this, you may wonder why I chose the NP route? Pragmatic factors such as described earlier, and in my locale NP's are utilized more -- there are more NP positions than PA here, and I have the RN background. There is also much, much more scholarship opportunity for NP study vs. PA. (Hey, this is great for me!) Having said this, I have no exposure to NP's, PA's, nursing educators at schools or nursing education programs I would wish to show anything less than respect to. --Ok, well, I can recall 1 NP who impressed me with subpar clinical skills, but I have come across over 15 NP's in my work and only 3 PA's.

If you have any concerns about education of NP's and you are an NP, I feel you are in a better place to make the NP education world a better one.

Regards,

Julia

FNP student

guest538567 · Jun 25, 2014

This is just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.
I do not think online programs are necessarily the problem. I believe that the real culprit are the governing bodies who determine accreditation for schools (AACN, etc.) If you examine the policies determining what program is up for accreditation, the AACN requires a core curriculum of advanced pharmacology, advanced pathophysiology and advanced health assessment (http://www.aacn.nche.edu/ccne-accreditation/Standards-Amended-2013.pdf, page 16). The policies governing NP education are much more lenient than the PA policies see (http://www.arc-pa.org/documents/AccredManual%204th%20edition%20Dec%202013%20FNL.pdf, page 43 onward to be specific). I don't where the leniency is coming from, maybe from the notion that the BSN degree properly prepared graduates? No offense, but fluffy classes involving leadership in nursing and whatnot did not help me prepare for a master's degree. If we want to be considered as adequate as PAs, we should have the same backgrounds academically. It won't hurt to learn physics, organic chemistry, etc. And while RN experience is all well and good, it highly variable. One RN may have dove deep into her practice, took every opportunity to learn and worked hard every day. And then you could have another RN who has had years of "experience" and stayed stagnant, doesn't attempt to learn and hardly manages to get her work done. I can see where doubt can grow.
I think a major overhaul of the accreditation bodies needs to be done. If they can raise the level and curriculum, then I'll say it's okay. Until then, I'll have doubt. But that's just me.

^This. There is a reason that you don't find online PA programs and i'll bet it is due to the accreditation and rigor of the programs. NP programs have far too much variability in the nature of the coursework. In my humble opinion, the entirety of NP curriculum should be standardized and made more rigorous with increased clinical hours and more emphasis on medical sciences.

I personally think that online education will likely only increase in the future. I went through a traditional in-class lecture based NP program. However, I have colleagues that went to reputable state schools with an online program which had standardized exams taken in testing centers and maintained a challenging and academically rigorous program. I think such schools with brick and mortar components are fine. I am not a fan of the proliferation of the online for profit programs. They may be ok for some students although I think the perception will be that it cheapens the profession. The reality is that most of us are hired by physicians who are accustomed to the stringent criteria for med school acceptance and would likely look down upon one who was trained at the these non-reputable online programs.

megank5183 · Jun 25, 2014

it is silly to condemn a school purely for being online. I go to drexel and allll or our exams are proctored. My coworker goes to a brick and mortar school and all his exams are open book.