Are these grounds for termination legitimate

Lacie, BSN, RN · Oct 27, 2009

If you are in an "at will state" then they dont even need a reason to terminate you. Sounds like a hospital I used to work at in Kentucky that had an "occasion" policy. It didnt matter why you were off even with a legitamate MD excuse. I was in the ICU with my infant son and got an occasion for it then followed being hospitalized myself recieving another "occasion". I came back to work after my discharge and worked one day, didnt make it home the same doctor who worked at my hospital re-admitted me with a fever of 103. Turns out I had mono so bad which put me in the hospital twice in a 2 week period. I lost my job!! This all occurred within a 3 month period in which you were permitted only 3 occasions. Look at your company policy but as I said if in an "at will state" they dont need a reason. You can still apply for unemployment as unless it was intentional gross misconduct related to your termination you may still be eligible to recieve it. If denied appeal it! It's up to the employer to prove you are not eligible. Collect all of your documentation from MD's etc.

oslogirl · Oct 27, 2009

It sounds like you are going through a really tough time. You have been through alot with the illnessess and loss. Unfortunately, as we all know, healthcare is a business, and the bottom line supercedes employee welfare in all too many cases, imo.

Check with an atty about the bonus and legitimacy of termination.

You WILL find a better job; take god care of yourself, and be happy, ok?

jrhillsboro · Oct 27, 2009

I appreciate you sharing your experience with me. Your sharing has lifted my sense of failure to a certain degree and I appreciate that. If the termination had been based on something other than a 9 minute error on a sign in sheet, witnessed by persons unknown to me, then I would feel differently. Or if I had a habit or history of cheating the clock even. My supervisor obviously wanted to replace me and to cause me as much misery as she could, or so it seems. To work me to the last day of keeping the sign on bonus, then to fire me for that, which is pretty trivial in the scheme of patient care, doesn't seem fair or professional. The failure to give an Ultram for an hour allegation to a patient who was admitted after 3 PM, and whose medicine I gave at 4:30 PM, and who was not even admitted yet on paper, is pretty weak too I think. I don't want my patient to suffer needlessly, but the pain could not have been that severe if the medicine was ultram, and I thought the protocol indicated that I needed the "chart" for several reasons, that the chart would be prepared in short order, and I had other patients on schedules I had to begin, so it is not like I willfully refused to ease a patients pain or to follow an order. The order was not stat.

I realize I need to move on, but I will have to appeal the termination as not for just cause simply because of the bonus. The contract for the bonus and the employee handbook creates implied contracts despite the fact that Arkansas is an at will state. In addition, I think it is not fair to hire people with an illusion of premium pay for a shift, which mine apparently was. If I was a bad nurse I think they would have had better grounds to base the termination upon. Live and learn:)

jrhillsboro · Oct 27, 2009

It sounds like you are going through a really tough time. You have been through alot with the illnessess and loss. Unfortunately, as we all know, healthcare is a business, and the bottom line supercedes employee welfare in all too many cases, imo.
Check with an atty about the bonus and legitimacy of termination.
You WILL find a better job; take god care of yourself, and be happy, ok?

I appreciate the reminder of what is important. Happiness is the best medicine. I think in this case the bottom line was not the motivator, or they would have had substantive reasons for the termination. I think I learned that even a supervisor who apparently lives a pathetic life has control over me as an employee. I am a new graduate, and I did not realize that childish behavior was prevalent in an adult envirnoment. That makes me feel really immature and naive as to the ways of the world. Bob Marley wouild agree with your suggestion, and thanks for making me remember to be happy:)

MedSurgeMess · Oct 27, 2009

If you are in an at will state, it doesn't matter if you feel there is an implied contract. Unless you have a union that has a contract, then unfortunately you are SOL. Fight this, but don't expect too much.....the economy is making many companies greedy

jrhillsboro · Oct 28, 2009

If you are in an at will state, it doesn't matter if you feel there is an implied contract. Unless you have a union that has a contract, then unfortunately you are SOL. Fight this, but don't expect too much.....the economy is making many companies greedy

I don't expect my job back, but I feel pretty strongly about the bonus as it is based upon a contract. I have a hard time accepting the allegation that I committed fraud and attempted theft by decpetion for a measly 9 minutes, which they claim to have unknown witnesses. I will make them play this out so that I can see who the official keeper of time is:) But no I certainly don't expect much out of them or this.

How should I approach my next application for employment. My instinct is to be honest and forthright, but everything I read says never bring up any negatives. I am a new graduate, or recent, and my brain and my soul are telling me different approaches:) I believe that you never do wrong by doing the right thing, despite the normal fears the truth sometimes represents. I hate to abandon that simple guide but the experts all say the opposite. Health S? says they only sya that an employee worked there and when. Any guidance will be greatly appreciated

CASTLEGATES · Oct 28, 2009

See if you can get your record cleared; you may need an attorney to do so (your employment record in exchange for no hospital legal fees). Otherwise you'll have to answer for this on every application for life.

Given the medication situation, patient comes first-not chart. I know paperwork is important but that's why I've got my notepad and make sure all patients are first.

There are reasons for everything but given these incidents, it's just too much for a facility to bear. Some people get sick and some never do. Some have "bad lucK" so to speak so they weed the "bad luck" out of the facility.

9 minutes, if witnessed is enough at any facility to be let go, so is the hour medication delay. You need to find a facility and a unit not so hectic but definitely try to clear it up and you'll need to practice your response to your new employer about what happened. If it were me, I'd take ownership because incidents that are always someone else's fault or due to extenuating circumstances but often (seen by the facility) is a red flag. Own what you can and explain the rest.

morte, LPN, LVN · Oct 28, 2009

a "0" and a "9" can be alterated to look like the other......and according to jacho.....we are not to take verbal orders.....there fore you needed to have the NP write the order.....and where were you to access this med from? a pixis type of machine? that requires pharmacy approval in some places, minimal of an override....if directly from the pharm that requires time.....if this is long term care, it can be hours before the meds would be available...i would be wanting to check for allergies etc before i gave a patient i didnt know any meds!....and why did you end up with both new admits? unless that was your sole job for the shift, to do admissions??? good luck

jrhillsboro · Oct 28, 2009

You are obviously a very experienced and professional nurse, and I hope some day to have your self confidence and comprhension of nursing practice. You raised every question that I was embarrassed or intimidated to ask. Admitting two patients at meal time, with med pass, treatments, and answering the nurse call, not to mention the families, patients, and employees was a full load for me, but I thought I just must not be as experienced and as competent as I should be. Then to have the Doctor basically ask me to violate the nurse practice act and give a pain medicine with no chart, no knowledge of allergies, other medicines taken, and to use pills from an unapproved source and no place to document it bothered me tremendously, because I felt that even with the verbal order, if something went wrong, it would still have been my responsibility to have made sure the medication was appropriate and not contraindicated. It also left me wide open for charges of drug diversion since I had no order, no count, and no place to document the administration of the med. But I was too intimidated by the NP to question her, plus I was simply swamped. It is true that in rehab we only have between 10-13 residents, we also do not have nurse iades so we provide almost all of the care since the therapist are primarily on days. But an admission takes a lot of time to do properly. I appreciate you taking the time from your day to help restore my self worth by pointing out what I knew but was afraid to say to them, that their expectation of me that day were not realistic, especially since they then alleged I cheat them out of 9 minutes of pay. I am sure some nurses could have done all of that, according to jacho standards and the nurse practice act, but it was more than I could do. I did manage to get it all done though, except for the 1 hr delay from the time the verbal order was given on a new admit to the time I could administer the med.

I honestly believe that my immediate supervisor simply did not like me, and she terminated me with false allegations and trumped up charges. I further believe she must not be much of a nurse because if she did want to run a nurse off, even a good nurse makes legitimate mistakes if you watch them the entiore shift everyday, and the termination would be based upon those findings. Not the petty mistake of a time card error due to their machine mal functioning or because I refused to follow an order in such a manner as to constitute a violation of jacho and the nurse practice act. A good fair supervisor would have divided the admmits between nurses or helped admit them so that all of the patients received the quality of care that they deserved and paid for.

I may be young, and yes even a little immature and lacking in self confidence, but one day soon I hope to be more like you. Thank you.

jrhillsboro · Oct 28, 2009

See if you can get your record cleared; you may need an attorney to do so (your employment record in exchange for no hospital legal fees). Otherwise you'll have to answer for this on every application for life.
Given the medication situation, patient comes first-not chart. I know paperwork is important but that's why I've got my notepad and make sure all patients are first.
There are reasons for everything but given these incidents, it's just too much for a facility to bear. Some people get sick and some never do. Some have "bad lucK" so to speak so they weed the "bad luck" out of the facility.
9 minutes, if witnessed is enough at any facility to be let go, so is the hour medication delay. You need to find a facility and a unit not so hectic but definitely try to clear it up and you'll need to practice your response to your new employer about what happened. If it were me, I'd take ownership because incidents that are always someone else's fault or due to extenuating circumstances but often (seen by the facility) is a red flag. Own what you can and explain the rest.

I agree that the patients should come first, and patient safety is the exact reason why an order should be written and a chart available prior to the administration of a medicine. An Ultram is a very mild pain medication, only recently even being classified as a controlled drug. By definition, there are serious side effects. The NP was not the attending physician, and had no history with the resident. Now what if one of those serious side effects injured the resident, one that was preventable if I had properly administered the medication. Was the need for that medication so great to ignore laws and regulations designed to protect the patient? Was the benefit worth the risk? Would the NP have owned up to the order? Or would it be a case of me risking my license for ignoring the protocols and placing the patient at risk?

Like I said, I am young, am not sure of the work place rules as far as everyone accepting the blame they earn, but I do appreciate you encouraging me to follow my do right rule and just be honest with my future potential employers. If for no other reason than to simply allow me to be happy and sleep well at night. Plus if what I did was wrong, I would rather own up to a mistake than to become a liar:)

jrhillsboro · Oct 29, 2009

I realize that this was a petty problem from an inexperienced nurse and as a result I really appreciate all of the comments you, the posters took the time to express. They were not very critical, but some were mildly critical or at least honest about the realities of the work place, some were supportive by sharing, some were loaded with wisdom as to how to respond, and some reminded me of what is important for a person to stay their best, don't mope, be happy. Each post contained advice that for me was invaluable and very helpful and I really appreciate each and every one of you. This is a wonderful site for a newbie to belong who is interested in learning how to become a very competent, professional nurse. I have a BSN, and a license, but I have so much yet to learn about life, nursing, and the work environment. For a young new nurse auch as myself, the combined wisdom of all of you members represent a treasure trove of wisdom available simply by asking.

I have decided to own my on version of "how to move forward" by ignoring the advice of the resume writers, and plan on beinbg honest about this situation. Yes, I was terminated because I was on probation for excessive unexcused absences. We are allowed three. However, one of mine was when I had the shingles and was sent home by the facility. Another one was when my grandmother died and I went to her funeral. The third one was indeed simply unexcused. I also was alleged to have falsified company records, and I dispute that fact. They claim that I actually arrived at work at 2:49 but that I signed in at 2:40. They claim they had a witness but I was never told who or how they documented this. I had no prior incidents with this, and I signed in due to the facility not having properly working equipment. I signed in according to my watch, and had no intention of cheating the facility. If I made an error, it was a simple mistake. At that particular facility, if I worked there again, I would require a witness to witness my entry. They also allege I failed to give a patient an ultram for an hour after a verbal order from a NP for a patient who had not been admitted yet. I did give the medicine after the chart was prepared, but since I had other duties I had to begin to stay on schedule, I did not give the medicine the minute the chart was available, but I did as soon as I could. I feel like I needed to have developed a better relationshio with my immediate supervisor, I realize that was my responsibility, and I plan on correcting that in the future. Despite that fact, I really enjoyed working at the facility and think overall they provide great care and the employees are all great as well. That includes my immediate supervisor. She was a great nurse and person despite not caring for me. Liking me is not a life requirement for being a good person. So I realize that I don't have perfect references, I don't have a lot of experience, I need to work on my interpersonal skills as well, but I am eager to learn, hard working, and I think pretty dependable. And I really need a job! I missed one day in 9 months. I could not not go to my grandmothers funeral. There was not a choice for me to make.

I am sure that 10 or twenty years from now I will meet someone like me and and want to pull my hair out over their unexperience, and naivety, but hopefully, I will remember these early days of mine. Then hopefully I will take a deep breath, smile, and not run her off because I can and because she is honestly more work than I would like at that point in my life. Instead I hope I help her become a competent, professional nurse. Nurses are educated at school, but they are trained and developed at the workplace by wonderful people like all of you:)