APRNs should only be DNPs!

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  1. Should a non practice clinician be able to obtain a DPN?

    • 45
      Yes
    • 35
      No, this is a clinical doctorate

80 members have participated

Hi all! First, I want to say that I am NOT starting this thread to start a war. I am working on my very last assignment for my DNP/FNP (graduating 5/4). 1300 clinical hours were required for graduation and was completed in Peds, Geri, clinical diagnostics, Adult 1 & 2 and OB/GYN. Anyway heres the issue...An APRN is a NP, CNS, CRNA or CNM. (I put this here because, I myself, mixed up the letters and initially thought the issue was about ARNPs). Non APRNS are those nurses who have a master's in*nursing*education, nursing administration or another area. They are not clinicians. They do not have a*patient*population they care for.*Please*review the*consensus*documents for further*explanation. RMU accepts only APRNs in our post master's DNP*program. Other dnp programs accept non APRNs. This is*the*debate. *Can a*post*master's DNP program be*appropriate*for an APRN who does not have a patient population?

Specializes in Outpatient Psychiatry.
At least the good nursing schools require people to take the teas before they enter in. So at least some nurses know what mitochondria are. I'd say most probably think it's a bone disease though. But all the sucky ones don't require anything really. Of course everybody but the worst end up with similar jobs though since nurses are in short supply everywhere. That will change though since for some god awful reason everybody wants to go back to be a nurse. I guess so they can feed their kids which isn't really an unnoble cause but it doesn't mean they have any what of a scientific mind. More than likely it means they are super unscientific.

I'm honestly with you on the non-sciencey nursing. How much science does a butt wipe need? When I was in RN, particularly the traumatizing experience I spent in a medical-surgical unit, I was completely thoughtless. I was so over run with trying to juggle tasks that I didn't give a ****** **** about science, pharm, or anything. My only thought was "***, have I done!" I detested being a RN in all settings, but med-surg was the absolute epitomy of hell for me. In fact, have now have a visceral stress response to people coughing or puking. I become infuriated and do everything I can to exit the situation.

That being said, maybe the critical care folks, which I did for a short-time, or the ER folks, which I did for a year or so, need a little science. However, I can attest that most of the nurses in my ER were not remotely interested in any -ology.

The sad part is that most NPs I've been around are this way. I was at a lecture recently and a pharmacist was presenting. A question was asked to the audience when I just happened to be looking toward the door at the back of the room. It looked like a herd of deer standing on a highway about to get run over. And then I went to a break out session with other PMHNPs. I don't think any of them had any clue about anything other than mental illness being a "chemical imbalance." Just what the heck is this imbalance? What chemicals are out of balance? No one has quantified how much serotonin one should have so how do you know an imbalance exists? It's the stupidest thing I've ever been taught. Hypoglycemia is a chemical imbalance.

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I suppose a butt wipe ologist could throw in the coefficient of kinetic friction when wiping to determine the maximal butt wipe force able to be applied without causing a skin tear. Of course this would require calculus since most forms of stool could be considered s lubricant and usually stool isn't distributed in s perfect shape thus again requiring calculus. and also the friction coefficient of the style of wipe would also have to be considered. Lol

but anyway like you said nursing isn't all about science at the rn level which is fine, but ego-ology many nurses having thinking they know everything is what causes the annoyance. Then this is carried over to the aprn role which actually should have more science and the sh*t his the bedpan.

Aprn practice seems to be based off of symptom matching and cookbook medicine, again which isn't all bad and some docs do it too. But again, when APRNS try to tout they are just as good as docs in all aspects it just sounds ridiculous and all these research studies pop up saying we can handle disease as well as docs. Sure, we can, at least the ones that can be algorithmitized. And those are the only ones present in these studies. Sort of you know providing the lay people with false hope and lies.

Many diseases cannot be cookbooked and there is where the difference lies peeps.

htn and and dm outcomes just as good for APRNS compared to docs. Great. All that says is we can read a flow chart lol. Not to mention how do you control for specialist care. You can't.

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I suppose a butt wipe ologist could throw in the coefficient of kinetic friction when wiping to determine the maximal butt wipe force able to be applied without causing a skin tear. Of course this would require calculus since most forms of stool could be considered s lubricant and usually stool isn't distributed in s perfect shape thus again requiring calculus. and also the friction coefficient of the style of wipe would also have to be considered. Lol

but anyway like you said nursing isn't all about science at the rn level which is fine, but ego-ology many nurses having thinking they know everything is what causes the annoyance. Then this is carried over to the aprn role which actually should have more science and the sh*t his the bedpan.

Aprn practice seems to be based off of symptom matching and cookbook medicine, again which isn't all bad and some docs do it too. But again, when APRNS try to tout they are just as good as docs in all aspects it just sounds ridiculous and all these research studies pop up saying we can handle disease as well as docs. Sure, we can, at least the ones that can be algorithmitized. And those are the only ones present in these studies. Sort of you know providing the lay people with false hope and lies.

Many diseases cannot be cookbooked and there is where the difference lies peeps.

htn and and dm outcomes just as good for APRNS compared to docs. Great. All that says is we can read a flow chart lol. Not to mention how do you control for specialist care. You can't.

Are you a NP?

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Specializes in Outpatient Psychiatry.
Are you a NP?

probably. the poster's name is Sauce, NP

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It all about the college/university 's making more degrees to make more money. I have been a nurse practitioner for over 20 years and my patients still do not know what to call me. We need to be unified.

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Specializes in Outpatient Psychiatry.
It all about the college/university 's making more degrees to make more money. I have been a nurse practitioner for over 20 years and my patients still do not know what to call me. We need to be unified.

so doctor?

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The only degree worse than the DNP is the doctor of medical science degree starting to pop up for PAs.

if we were all born with the doctor title it would save us a lot of trouble in life.

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Specializes in orthopedic/trauma, Informatics, diabetes.
It's not clinical, it's not administrative, it's not pedagogical... I've read position papers, etc, but none of them justify the purpose.
It can be pedagogical. I am getting my DNP in Informatics. My plan is to be a clinical educator not only in a clinical setting (ie helping new nurses become more efficient at charting) but also at the University level. A psychology Ph.D cannot practice in the same way that a medical Psychiatrist can. I think there is a niche for the DNP. As a DNP. I still would be able to work with the bedside nurse or go into the classroom. Or do research.

As a Ph.D, it is research, research, research and grant writing. Had a boyfriend with a Ph.D and trying to find a tenure track position and the actually get tenure is very difficult. I love the idea of the DNP. Where I am going to school, they have a side-by-side comparison of the 2. It was really helpful.

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Specializes in Outpatient Psychiatry.
It can be pedagogical. I am getting my DNP in Informatics. My plan is to be a clinical educator not only in a clinical setting (ie helping new nurses become more efficient at charting) but also at the University level. A psychology Ph.D cannot practice in the same way that a medical Psychiatrist can. I think there is a niche for the DNP. As a DNP. I still would be able to work with the bedside nurse or go into the classroom. Or do research.

As a Ph.D, it is research, research, research and grant writing. Had a boyfriend with a Ph.D and trying to find a tenure track position and the actually get tenure is very difficult. I love the idea of the DNP. Where I am going to school, they have a side-by-side comparison of the 2. It was really helpful.

Well, I know...I think we all know a clinical or counseling psychologist cannot practice the scope of psychiatry although at one time therapy was solely the scope of psychiatrist. Bob Dylan said the times are a changin'. Ironically, you can work the bed, do research, or teach without a DNP...

The DNP can be whatever the school slants it as. One school available to me has a DNP theory based degree. Another has a course full of admin-type courses. I just shared via PM a program that does a DNP/MPH and there are almost no DNP courses involved, lol. I think all the DNPs include an informatics course. I took that in the BSN (later life nurse here) program, and can't recall anything about what we did. I just read a Kindle single called "Make Your Smartphone 007 Smart." It's WAY more techie than anything about what we did in informatics.

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Specializes in orthopedic/trauma, Informatics, diabetes.

Most universities require doctoral level to teach. What are "DNP" (versus MPH) courses? I have 4 classes as basic MSN courses then 8 classes of informatics courses that go from data analytics to EHR writing. For the DNP, there is a whole set of another 8 courses (I don't need any electives as I have a masters in another area). Of course I have to have 1000 hours of practicum hours for the DNP.

Informatics has changed. You make is sound like it is some sort of fluff degree. It is not, believe me.

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Specializes in Outpatient Psychiatry.
Most universities require doctoral level to teach. What are "DNP" (versus MPH) courses? I have 4 classes as basic MSN courses then 8 classes of informatics courses that go from data analytics to EHR writing. For the DNP, there is a whole set of another 8 courses (I don't need any electives as I have a masters in another area). Of course I have to have 1000 hours of practicum hours for the DNP.

Informatics has changed. You make is sound like it is some sort of fluff degree. It is not, believe me.

MPH = master of public health. If you want to be in academia you need to know about it.

A combined degree allows for dual credit and thus shorter duration of study.

The combined DNP MPH you're asking about would involve DNP standard coursework and MPH standard coursework with some offered for dual credit. In the program in question, I don't recall seeing any nursey classes, lol thus further examples of a DNP being whatever the school decides it to be.

Not all universities require a doctorate. Farce.

I fully believe that a DNP is entirely a fluff degree. And the fluffiest of all doctorates. I suspect it's fluffier than a DFA.

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Fluffiness is for pillows, not degrees.

Degrees should be hard, uncomfortable, and difficult to obtain. Usually the ones worth pursuing are.

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