We were discussing the Disneryland measles outbreak at work, and I was appalled to find some of my co-workers refuse to vaccinate their kids. They (grudgingly) receive the vaccines they need to remain employed, but doubt their safety/necessity for their kids.
I must say, I am absolutley stunned. How can one be a nurse and deny science?
As a nurse, you should darn well know what the scientific method entails and what phrases such as "evidence based" and "peer reviewed" mean.
I have to say, I have lost most of my respect for the nurses and mistrust their judgement; after all, if they deny science, on what premise are they basing their practices?
Oh really, the 170+ articles with most of them being peer-reviewed articles are wrong too. I guess everything that doesn't support your opinion is wrong then.
Even in academics wikipedia, although not officially quoted, is often used as a preliminary search to further refine a literature review. It is also often a good source to find peer-reviewed articles in the reference section. Wikipedia as an open source editing website has much more validity than a completely biased closed anti-vaccine website.
So why would she make it her mission to expose a hidden truth? Do you really think these people just sit around and think up grandiose stories to tell? People who speak out against vaccines are only trying to inform the public of the risks. The risks that are never really explained in detail in a doctor's office. They are trying to raise awareness on the issue. To present the side that people don't usually hear about. Some may know someone who was killed or injured by a vaccine.
Let's give her full credit....
"As an undergraduate at M.I.T, Dr. Brogan studied Cognitive Neuroscience and worked with Harvard undergraduates to create a public forum for the discussion of alternative medicine, directing conferences for the Hippocratic Society. She attended Cornell Medical School where she was awarded the Rudin Scholarship for Psychiatric Oncology and began her work in Reproductive Psychiatry, which she went on to train in during her residency at NYU/Bellevue. A strong interest in the interface of medicine and psychiatry led her to pursue a fellowship in Consultation Liaison/Psychosomatic Medicine at NYU/Bellevue/VA Hospital. Since that time, she remains on faculty and has focused her efforts on her private practice where she cares for patients with medical illnesses, as well as women at all stages of their reproductive life cycle. A passion for holistic living, environmental medicine, and nutrition are the bedrock of her functional medicine practice. She has published in the field of Psycho-Oncology, Women's Health, Perinatal Mental Health, Alternative Medicine, and Infectious Disease. She is Board Certified in Psychiatry, Psychosomatic Medicine, as well as Board Certified in Integrative and Holistic Medicine." - See more at: A Shot Never Worth Taking: The Flu Vaccine ~ by Kelly Brogan, MD | International Medical Council on Vaccination
I have said this before and even in this thread that anti-vaccine advocates, such as Kelly Brogan, often make a lot of money off of selling their opinions.
If vaccination is supposed to cause one to become immune by introducing antibodies into the system, why is it so important that I get vaccinated?
Are you seriously asking me this question? It was asked and answered so many times earlier in this thread you either didn't read it, or are simply trolling for responses. To indicate that you have that little of an understanding of how vaccines work and what herd immunity is at this point in this discussion is alarming at best, however I will humor you once more.
Just because an individual gets vaccinated, does not mean that individual will develop antibodies. An effective vaccine causes a sufficient number of individuals who get the vaccine to produce antibodies so that an organism will not spread. The sufficient number is dependent upon several factors including: how contagious the organism is, how many individuals are medically unable to be vaccinated, etc. By not vaccinating an additional percentage of the population those who do not get vaccinated thus reduce the percentages down to a level where the vaccine is not effective for the population as a whole.
I had the chicken pox when I was a kid. It was a mild illness that we now vaccinate against.
It was a mild illness to you and many who got it, but it killed thousands of others and leads to shingles for many of those as well.
Obesity is a public health problem.
The difference between obesity and vaccinations is that in the case of obesity I only harm myself. In the case of vaccinations and other public health issues where the common good needs to be placed above individual rights, the individual's decision impacts the health of the community.
Sanitation and sewage, is another issue where individual freedoms are restricted for the betterment of the community at large. If an individual decides to defecate in public, or for that matter to not manage their sewage in an approved manner, then yes that is something where that individual is impacting the safety and health of the community. In that situation we will forcibly if necessary make that individual comply with the health needs of the community.
I would not be opposed to us requiring, as two states do already, that all individuals who do not have a medical reason to not be vaccinated receive vaccinations for the betterment of the society, in fact I'm amazed that our government has allowed this erroneous debate to go on this long.
I do advocate for my patient's. If I am to give a vaccine, I make sure they understand fully the risks. I don't want the person to become ill for life or die because I gave it to them.
Oh wow, just wow! Now that is what makes the rest of us scared to realize there are people like you working as a nurse spreading this miss-information to patients.
How Vaccines Work. It always amazes that no one expects any other medication to be 100% effective for everyone, but every anti-vaxer thinks vaccines should be 100% effective for everyone. That is equivalent of thinking everyone should look exactly the same and have the exact same genome.
The flu is not part of the regular vaccine schedule, and last I heard, the Roto virus vaccine isn't even used anymore. Many of the vaccines available today weren't available when I was a kid, if they were, I'd have received them (chicken pox, for one). Children in 1900 didn't get any of the vaccines I did as a child, and many died as a result. Not sure where you wanted to go with this, but it's really NOT an argument against vaccines.
You claim not to be anti-vax but you sure are using anti-vax logic and "research" for your arguments. You say, "I wasn't vaccinated with these and neither were any of us and we are all fine". Wow, none of these diseases killed you. That must mean they haven't killed anyone else, either!
The vaccine schedule I received from my pediatrician includes the flu vaccine and roto virus vaccine. I did not receive a hepatitis B vaccine until I was a nursing student. I remember hep b vaccines being required for healthcare workers because we are most at risk of contracting it, so why would a child absolutely need it before the age of 1? I do not agree with the vaccine schedule. Too many vaccines too soon. I recently visited the pediatrician with my 14 month old son who has severe eczema and had a staph infection head to toe. She actually asked if we would like to get 3 shots that day! Uh no, I don't think penetrating a staph rash with an IM needle would be a good idea at this time, especially when his immune system is being taxed right now.
The "research" is an actual ongoing lawsuit because MERCK fraudulently claimed their MMR vaccine was 95 percent effective and it was not. They claimed it was 95 percent effective to maintain sole rights to the vaccine, for financial reasons. Do not think that pharmaceutical companies have anyone's interests at heart in the slightest.
I am not against vaccines. Most of us had chicken pox as children and did not die, why do we need a vaccine against it? They will keep coming up with vaccines to give us. Would you take the ebola vaccine? Would you give it to a 6 month old infant if it appeared on the vaccine schedule next year?
I gather by your user name you want to be a nurse anesthetist.
I truly do not mean the following as a personal attack, but in the interest of being concise, I will be blunt
I hope that if you continue to strive to enter the highly skilled specialty of CRNA, you will learn how the scientific process works, and what phrases such as evidence based and peer reviewed mean
It is evident by your posting (simply by the fact that you referred to the MMR as a neurtoxin and the fact that you are perpetrating the link between it and autism) that you are not currently aware of how to research for reputable science based studies, and therefore may be confused about the basics of the scientific process
I would NOT want a CRNA who is so ignorant of the basic principles of research, stats,and science
I am not ignorant of the scientific process, I have a previous science-based bachelor degree and I was actively involved in research. I also have taken several statistics courses. You must not have read the link I posted, it is an article on a lawsuit claiming that MERCK lied about the effectiveness of its MMR vaccines. Pharmaceutical companies only care about their bottom lines, not our health, not the "greater good". This is why they lied. You should not be ignorant of the fact that billion dollar corporations could lie to the American public to make billions of dollars. What good are statistics if the numbers are made up? And why was this not on the mainstream news? Because corporations that sell us products own the news stations ie NBC- General Electric- UNIVERSAL, all one corporation.
So why would she make it her mission to expose a hidden truth? Do you really think these people just sit around and think up grandiose stories to tell? People who speak out against vaccines are only trying to inform the public of the risks. The risks that are never really explained in detail in a doctor's office. They are trying to raise awareness on the issue. To present the side that people don't usually hear about. Some may know someone who was killed or injured by a vaccine.
Let's give her full credit....
"As an undergraduate at M.I.T, Dr. Brogan studied Cognitive Neuroscience and worked with Harvard undergraduates to create a public forum for the discussion of alternative medicine, directing conferences for the Hippocratic Society. She attended Cornell Medical School where she was awarded the Rudin Scholarship for Psychiatric Oncology and began her work in Reproductive Psychiatry, which she went on to train in during her residency at NYU/Bellevue. A strong interest in the interface of medicine and psychiatry led her to pursue a fellowship in Consultation Liaison/Psychosomatic Medicine at NYU/Bellevue/VA Hospital. Since that time, she remains on faculty and has focused her efforts on her private practice where she cares for patients with medical illnesses, as well as women at all stages of their reproductive life cycle. A passion for holistic living, environmental medicine, and nutrition are the bedrock of her functional medicine practice. She has published in the field of Psycho-Oncology, Women's Health, Perinatal Mental Health, Alternative Medicine, and Infectious Disease. She is Board Certified in Psychiatry, Psychosomatic Medicine, as well as Board Certified in Integrative and Holistic Medicine." - See more at: A Shot Never Worth Taking: The Flu Vaccine ~ by Kelly Brogan, MD | International Medical Council on Vaccination
She may be the best darned "Reproductive Psychiatrist" of all time. But if giving her "full credit" means that her expertise in reproductive psychiatry means that we should look to her for guidance about vaccines, about immunology, about epidemiology, give me a freaking break. My DH's good friend got leukemia, and his oncologist is someone I'd send my most beloved relative to. However, I'd really hesitate to take his word very seriously if he wrote an article about VBAC vs. repeat cesarean section. Or, let's take the neurosurgeon who did my neck surgery. I went to him after taking care of his patients for a decade, and I had high confidence in him. However, if I wanted a really good face lift, I don't think I'd necessarily take his opinion on this procedure vs. that procedure to heart. I don't believe I'm going to take my diabetic mother to a urologist to get a really good sliding scale for her insulin.
MD does not mean expert in everything. The fact that this has escaped an alleged RN is very telling.
If vaccination is supposed to cause one to become immune by introducing antibodies into the system, why is it so important that I get vaccinated? If vaccines did what they are supposed to do, then you should be able to have enough immunity built up to prevent the disease. If immunity were that simple, vaccines might just work. It appears they don't work as well as we're led to believe. Think of it in this way....I had the chicken pox when I was a kid. It was a mild illness that we now vaccinate against. I have full immunity because I had the disease and my body perfectly recognizes that antigen. The people who are vaccinated against it are still at risk because one vaccination doesn't protect for life. We don't know how long vaccines even work. No person is the same. So if you put me (had chicken pox-immune), a person vaccinated against chicken pox, and a person who currently has chicken pox in a room what would happen? I know I wouldn't get it, but the vaccinated person could. Vaccination is always a shot in the dark. A guess. A risk. Vaccine companies are protected by law from being sued for damages. So if a person is hurt or killed by a vaccine, you can't do anything about it. You can't make the company pay. You can't penalize them for what their product did. That is too much power given to a pharmaceutical company in my opinion.
Obesity is a public health problem. Maybe we should force McDondald's to close and take away all the soda and processed foods because it could potentially harm me and my family. TV commercials too because they affect the brain and tempt people to eat junk. There is talk that obesity might be contagious because people who have obese friends are more likely to be obese. What about public health policy for that? If we go there, where will it end. Arguments could be made for many health issues. It is also my body, and I should be able to decide what I want to put into it. I don't agree with the ingredients used. It's that simple. I don't want it. If we start to force vaccines, when will it end? Should we force women with high rates of familial breast cancer to undergo mastectomies? Should we force people who are at high risk for heart disease to take medication? I don't think it is ever a sound choice to begin to demand what others should put into their body. It is each person's right to choose what happens to their body. No one else should have a say.
Also, in regards to vaccination, it's something being done without knowing in advance if a person would even come into contact with that disease. They might or they might not, so it's putting things into the body without knowing the future.
Long term studies have not been done on vaccination, and there are probably many studies that need to be done to see if it has negative effects on humans. We assume allergies, Alzheimers, ADHD, bipolar, autoimmune diseases, etc. are just from environment or genes. If you think about the explosion of autoimmune diseases in the last few decades, it makes you wonder where it all came from. I would like to conduct some studies myself to find out if vaccines or our food supply has caused these health issues. I don't think anyone knows for sure. I err on the side of caution.
I do advocate for my patient's. If I am to give a vaccine, I make sure they understand fully the risks. I don't want the person to become ill for life or die because I gave it to them.
2. There are lots of longitudinal studies on vaccines. We have been studying the effects of vaccines since 1798.
3. Pharmaceutical companies cannot be sued for vaccines adverse reactions. It was determined in the 1980's that to keep the price of vaccines down and for pharmaceutical companies to provide vaccines on continuing basis this kind of protection was necessary. This was mainly due to unfounded anti-vaccine campaigners that made this a necessity. It also makes it much easier for people with suspected adverse reactions from vaccines to receive compensation. It is remarkable that the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program came into being because of misinformation from anti-vaxers and it is the favorite conspiracy theory of anti-vaxers now. Pharmaceutical companies would simply stop making vaccines if the governments did not offer this protection. This program does not offer criminal protection of pharmaceutical companies are found criminally negligent.
4. Obesity effects the physical health of one person as do all the other examples you gave. You have the right to martyr yourself for your beliefs you do not have the right to martyr everyone else for your beliefs. People have long been held against their will based on the rationale that you and every other anti-vaxer use i.e. my body my right. This can be seen in the case of Typhoid Mary and people that refuse to take their TB medications among others. Public health can and does supersede individual choice when there is a clear threat to the public well being.
5. Do you wear a seatbelt? You wear the seatbelt in case you are in a "future" accident. Vaccines are proactive solution to public health threats.
6. Everyone of the possible reactions and longterm problems from vaccines that you mentioned have been studied and I as well as others on here have provided many of those studies on this thread. The majority of increased diagnosis in certain diseases are mostly related to increased lifespans, change in diagnosis criteria, and better/more thorough testing.
7. I don't think you are capable of giving your patients unbiased vaccine information, and that disturbs me greatly. The reason I can say this is that you don't trust the CDC, FDA, NIH, and basically every other government agency. I highly doubt you would tell your patient that you have a 1 in million chance or greater of having a serious reaction to a vaccine or that autoimmune diseases, ADHD, Alzheimer's, allergies etc. have not been shown to be caused by vaccines.
Specializes in Nurse Leader specializing in Labor & Delivery.
Right? I'm not entirely clear on how one can die of complications of a disease if they didn't have the disease in the first place. So by this logic, if a patient on coumadin hemorrhages because of an elevated INR, taking coumadin wasn't the problem?
The vaccine schedule I received from my pediatrician includes the flu vaccine and roto virus vaccine. I did not receive a hepatitis B vaccine until I was a nursing student. I remember hep b vaccines being required for healthcare workers because we are most at risk of contracting it, so why would a child absolutely need it before the age of 1? I do not agree with the vaccine schedule. Too many vaccines too soon. I recently visited the pediatrician with my 14 month old son who has severe eczema and had a staph infection head to toe. She actually asked if we would like to get 3 shots that day! Uh no, I don't think penetrating a staph rash with an IM needle would be a good idea at this time, especially when his immune system is being taxed right now.
The "research" is an actual ongoing lawsuit because MERCK fraudulently claimed their MMR vaccine was 95 percent effective and it was not. They claimed it was 95 percent effective to maintain sole rights to the vaccine, for financial reasons. Do not think that pharmaceutical companies have anyone's interests at heart in the slightest.
I am not against vaccines. Most of us had chicken pox as children and did not die, why do we need a vaccine against it? They will keep coming up with vaccines to give us. Would you take the ebola vaccine? Would you give it to a 6 month old infant if it appeared on the vaccine schedule next year?
2. Unless the every possible injection site is covered in eczema then there is really no need to delay immunization and only increases the risk of vaccine preventable diseases. The only vaccine that I know that is not recommended with eczema is the small pox vaccine, which is not routinely given anywhere outside of the military on a large scale anymore.
5. Before the chickenpox vaccine there were 100 deaths and over 11,000 hospitalizations from chickenpox in 1995. Having had the chickenpox also makes you a lifelong carrier of the virus in your nervous system and susceptible to shingles.
6. If I was in an area that was prone to Ebola then yes I would get the vaccine for it and my family members. There is a whole list of vaccines that most people on receive when going to different countries.
wtbcrna, MSN, DNP, CRNA
5,128 Posts
Oh really, the 170+ articles with most of them being peer-reviewed articles are wrong too. I guess everything that doesn't support your opinion is wrong then.
Even in academics wikipedia, although not officially quoted, is often used as a preliminary search to further refine a literature review. It is also often a good source to find peer-reviewed articles in the reference section. Wikipedia as an open source editing website has much more validity than a completely biased closed anti-vaccine website.