I graduated college in 2008 from UT-Austin with a non science/health care degree. I have spent the past year working as a Clinical Tech (nurse aide) at Seton in a variety of specialties.
I've been going back between the NP and PA thing. I have a strong passion for science and medicine and spent a large portin of my life wanting to be a doctor. However, I am interested in the more acute specialties, such as trauma, surgery, ICU/CCU, and emergency medicine and those don't tend to be family friendly nor did I want to spend that much time/money in school, so med school went out.
I then started looking at the PA profession as we have a family friend who is a PA. I shadowed him a fair amount (he works in thoracic surgery) and then started branching out and shadowing in EM, orthopaedic surgery, dermatology, and pediatrics. All the doctors seemed to highly respect their PAs, the PAs were able to do a lot in surgery, and they seemed to learn the hard science with a lot of clinical hours similar to the doctors. It seemed pretty perfect.
However, I don't have any of the prerequisites, my GPA isn't so hot (2.4), and I'm not sure I am willing to put my life on hold for 5-6 more years. I know I am smart enough to do it (I can get straight As with only a moderate amount of effort) and I know I want to do it, but I just don't know if it is feasible.
I'm 23 years old, getting married in October, and my soon to be husband has a great job in Austin that he doesn't want to leave. By the time I would be able to start PA shool we would want to start a family and I just don't know if that will work out.
So, I started looking at NP programs. I don't know as much about NP as PA, so hopefully someone can correct me if my assumptions are wrong.
First off, it seems as though the NP programs have a lot of non non/clinical coursework and I don't understand how a class in "financial policy and planning" will make me a better clinical provider. Wouldn't it be better suited to get rid of those non clinical/science classes and replace them with classes that are more related to treating patients? Where is the indepth study of gross anatomy? Biochemistry? Genetics? Microbiology? Pathology? Also, why only 600-700 clinical hours? I realize that NP is specialized where PA is not, but in a master's level program, you'd think they could fit in more clinical hours as that is the best way to learn. Also, what do you guy's think about the DNP? I have no interest in teaching, research, or owning a practice. It seems as though the DNP is a mixture of a business degree, public health degree, and education degree.... none of which interest me. What is the point in suffering through a program I will hate when it won't make me any better of a care provider to my patients? Is it really necessary? If I do the MSN, will I be grandfathered in (if it is before 2015)?
Anyways - I don't have anything against nursing. My mom is a CNS and my uncle is a CRNA. They all provide wonderful care to their patients and ultimately, I am sure I will be happy with my job as an NP... it is just the schooling that I don't understand.
So, what do you guys think? Should I suck it up and pursue the PA route since that is my #1 choice? Should I give up having kids at the point we want to, potentially force my husband to leave his great job, and risk it being for nothing if I can't get accepted?
Or, should I just pursue the NP route? Although it isnt my top choice, it is still something I will be happy enough in. I know I can succeed at that route (I've already been accepted to the ADN program at ACC), I can stay local to the Austin area, and I will be a lot more confident that I will end up being able to provide advanced care to patients.
Any thoughts?
On a side note, how do you guys pick what specialty you want to go into? I was thinking about doing ACNP + RNFA so I could operate as well and work in trauma. Is it the ACNPs that work in the EDs or is that more FNPs? I get bored easily and like excitement and I love EDs. I know I would get bored just working in a routine office. I also love babies and the NICU and have thought bout doing NNP. I know you need experience for both and I don't really want to take the time to work in both areas, so how do you know?
Specializes in ICU,CCU, MICU, SICU, CVICU, CTSICU,ER.
But is it worth the risk of potentially upsetting my future husband's great job, relocating my family, delaying our plans, or even worse, not getting in at all?
I'm trying to figure out if If would be happy in the NP role, considering what my future goals are for a career. I have been doing some research in the field and, like I said, I do have a CNS and CRNA in the family. There is also an NP who worksin GI and floats around the entire hospital who I have talked to some.
I see a lot of NPs working in EM and Trauma. Is this a common thing for NPs to do? Do they have the FNP or ACNP background? If you do the RNFA also, is it common for NPs to first assist in the OR as well?
There is no guarentee that you will not re-locate after NP. The online schools make taking classes more feasible for many NP students. Online is not an option I've seen in PA school. You are 23 yr yrs old. Most couples are waiting until their late 20's to begin a family, placing higher emphasis on establishing a solid career first-not that you need to follow the new norm, but its something to consider. I realize you've done your research as you indicated, but to imply through your post that NP school is easier than PA school is pretty narrow-minded. I suggest you shadow an NP before assuming it is something lesser than a PA. We have both PA's and NP's in the ED, and from what I've seen the PA is more dependent on the MD for guidance where as the NP is more independent. My personal opinion on this is that the PA is trained in the medical model, and has learned to depend, associate, collaborate (whichever) with the MD. The NP has trained with another experienced NP using a nursing model.
Whatever you decide to do, only you can make the decision. However from you post it appears you have already made your decision-you are looking for justification in delaying family planning. Good luck to you in whichever endeavor you choose to pursue.
I have a bachelor's degree in the liberal arts. I've taken so many classes in liberal art and I am SO ready to be done with that. I've taken SO many classes in art, music, philosphy, social work, psychology, sociology, etc...
I'm not like your typical premed who has a degree in the sciences and that is all he or she has ever done.
Well, that's a relief! At least you'll be able to think outside the box. Whether you go PA or NP probably won't matter after grads of each have been in practice five years. So, pick what will be the less stressful route that will get you earning money asap.
Specializes in Critical Care, Orthopedics, Hospitalists.
I agree that it seems like you've already chosen the PA route - just go for it!
FWIW, my hubby is going through PA school as I am going through NP school. Each program is designed with a fairly different type of student in mind. PA school doesn't expect for you to bring much experience or medical knowledge to the table. NP school expects you to be an experienced nurse looking to progress into advanced practice. Hence the less clinical hours and "fluff" classes, which are designed with the thought that as a professional nurse, you will be learning more about your role as an Advanced Practitioner, plus other useful things like how to run an office, how to make the most money (finance classes, etc).
Depending on where you are, both programs tend to be very competative, and I worry that you will have trouble with a 2.4 GPA.
Something else to think about, you mentioned you didn't want to relocate but you would maybe rather do ACNP rather than FNP. UT Austin only has FNP, PNP, and NNP programs currently, so you wouldn't be able to do ACNP here. I think it would probably take about the same amount of time to do PA or NP b/c you have to work as an RN for at least 2 yrs before being accepted into the NP program (at least here in Austin). Also, just one more thing to think mention, I just graduated from the FNP program at UT in Austin and the job market is really, really tough Lots more jobs available for better pay in Dallas, Houston, San Antonio.
Addendum: After I typed all this out, I realized that it is possible to do ACNP here, you just have to do the online program through Texas Tech.
Well, that's a relief! At least you'll be able to think outside the box. Whether you go PA or NP probably won't matter after grads of each have been in practice five years. So, pick what will be the less stressful route that will get you earning money asap.
And here's the winning post. While you and I whine on about PA vs. NP, number of clinical hours, "fluff" classes, etc., here's a dude like the Zenster, who'll be practicing, seeing patients, improving their health, making some $$$, and overall being the generally positive shaman bro I like to imagine him to be.
One of the biggest things holding me back from going NP was having to set up my own clinicals. Well, my PCP is an NP, I brought this up to her last week, and she was really positive about it. Offered to take me to a meeting of our state NP association, help me network with NPs to find preceptors, etc. So, I've gone a long way towards solving the issue, just by getting on it rather than bemoaning the reality.
I think the PA model of education is pretty cool (the whole generalist thing). Problem is, my local PA program is literally 6x as expensive as my NP program. We're talking 60k vs 10k. Add in not working for 2 years in the PA program vs. part-time work at the NP program (which will let me keep my bennies, btw), as well as the opportunity for a generous scholarship in the NP program (10k for MSN, 20k for phd), and the answer starts to become clearer.
I think the whole trick will be to maximize the clinical experiences and study above-and-beyond the pathophys/pharm/medicine parts. Seems to me that really good NPs are a lot like really good RNs: independent in nature, assertive, and confident in their knowledge, while open to learning.
As I final note regarding "fluff" classes: it seems to me that a generation of NPs with training in issues of health policy and practice management have managed to do some very good things for their profession at the state and federal level. I may have to re-examine my own feelings on these types of courses.
I think the whole trick will be to maximize the clinical experiences and study above-and-beyond the pathophys/pharm/medicine parts. Seems to me that really good NPs are a lot like really good RNs: independent in nature, assertive, and confident in their knowledge, while open to learning.
As I final note regarding "fluff" classes: it seems to me that a generation of NPs with training in issues of health policy and practice management have managed to do some very good things for their profession at the state and federal level. I may have to re-examine my own feelings on these types of courses.
I don't think that the "fluff" classes are useless classes. I just don't think they will make me any better in caring for my patents. In a lot of other aspects, they are extremely useful. That just doesn't appeal to me.
Also, PA is not designed for the inexperience. The original purpose of the PA program was as a second career for Army medics. The better and well respected programs require a minimum of 2,000 hours of direct hands on patient care experience. Most schools have an average of 2-5 years of experience caring for patients before entering school. Most commonly, people are paramedics, nurses, respiratory therapists, etc.
Yes, there are schools that allow you to get in without experience. However, they are also direct entry NP programs that allow you to be a NP with 3 straight years of school and no previous healthcare experience.
I don't think that the "fluff" classes are useless classes. I just don't think they will make me any better in caring for my patents. In a lot of other aspects, they are extremely useful. That just doesn't appeal to me.
What kind of patients do you want to see? It might make a difference in the route you chose. If you want to do primary care, then you do need to load up on those science courses and become a world-recognized authority on goblet cells.
I don't think that the "fluff" classes are useless classes. I just don't think they will make me any better in caring for my patents. In a lot of other aspects, they are extremely useful. That just doesn't appeal to me.
Also, PA is not designed for the inexperience. The original purpose of the PA program was as a second career for Army medics. The better and well respected programs require a minimum of 2,000 hours of direct hands on patient care experience. Most schools have an average of 2-5 years of experience caring for patients before entering school. Most commonly, people are paramedics, nurses, respiratory therapists, etc.
Yes, there are schools that allow you to get in without experience. However, they are also direct entry NP programs that allow you to be a NP with 3 straight years of school and no previous healthcare experience.
There is "fluff" in PA school also. Every program has classes that include the history of the PA profession, billing, contracting and ethics to name a few. These are classes that help you transition to practice. Also a 60-100 hours in 1500 hours of didactic and 2200 hours of clinical qualifies as a nice break.
If you have a question about NP vs PA school then it might help to take a look at in terms of commitment. The primary difference between the two is that PA school front loads failure while NP school does not. Its difficult to get into PA school. There are a limited number of seats and a lot of people that want those seats. One way of looking at it is that on average there will be 14 people applying for every seat. On the average 40% of applicants in a given year will get into every program. However, once you get in, the program will do everything in their power to see that you succeed. So the failure tends to be in getting into PA school vs. not graduating once you get in. For NPs its a different process. There are certainly NP programs that are as or more competitive than PA programs but there are many more seats and more program.
From a PA program point of view there are two metrics that are measured. Those are graduation rates and PANCE pass rates. If a program loses sight of this they either end up on probation or closed. This means that they choose students that are likely to succeed in the program and pass the PANCE. What they are looking for is commitment. If you are not willing to commit two years of your life to getting though PA school they are unlikely to be interested. While they are not going to look for complete sacrifice you have to realize that if you really want to go to PA school some sacrifice is going to be necessary. Thats what it comes down to in the end. One of my classmates was a single mom who drove 1 1/2 hours each way for class. In the winter in Pennsylvania that doesn't count as fun. Another friend went to school 1000 miles from home and flew home every other weekend for a year to spend time with her daughter. Those are extreme examples, but sometimes if you want something bad enough you figure out a way to do it.
with a 2.4 gpa i am not sure any msn program will take you. and the next thing is you have to already be an rn or have met that educational requirement to become an NP.
you could enter an RN to MSN fast track program if you can get accepted. but you cannot go straight into grad school for nursing without already having a BSN.
the NP program is not easy, don't be fooled into thinking it is. NP students come from a nursing background, most NPs who go thru acute care NP programs are Rn who have worked in acute care.
I am sure someone else will chime in with more info.
if being a PA is what you want I say go for it now :)
Not sure if that is true. There is a Clinical Nurse Leader Program at the University of Iowa. It is for those who have a non-nursing Bachelor's degree. You get your master's and your RN. If you wanted to then go on you would need to get your DNP to be a nurse practitioner (at least at Iowa).
We have both PA's and NP's in the ED, and from what I've seen the PA is more dependent on the MD for guidance where as the NP is more independent. My personal opinion on this is that the PA is trained in the medical model, and has learned to depend, associate, collaborate (whichever) with the MD. The NP has trained with another experienced NP using a nursing model.
It's not your opinion, its fact- PAs are trained in the medical model.
As a PA, I can tell you that dependence is the nature of the practice relationship, not the Evaluation and Management process. I think your post is a bit misleading about PA practice. Nothing about a PA management of HTN, DM, COPD, RA, etc etc has "depend" in the equation except 1) the state regulation for chart review, 2) the manner in which all providers- PA, NP, MD, DO- consult with other providers on matters that are not in their field of expertise.
Face it folks, PAs and NPs practice almost identically. The education is quite different but after a few yrs in practice most non physician providers end up at the same place.
Read the article in this month's Clinician Reviews on Hospitalists. Clinician Reviews is a peer-reviewed journal for both NPs and PAs, so there should be no bias.
Lots more jobs available for better pay in Dallas, Houston, San Antonio.
criticalHP, MSN, RN
150 Posts
There is no guarentee that you will not re-locate after NP. The online schools make taking classes more feasible for many NP students. Online is not an option I've seen in PA school. You are 23 yr yrs old. Most couples are waiting until their late 20's to begin a family, placing higher emphasis on establishing a solid career first-not that you need to follow the new norm, but its something to consider. I realize you've done your research as you indicated, but to imply through your post that NP school is easier than PA school is pretty narrow-minded. I suggest you shadow an NP before assuming it is something lesser than a PA. We have both PA's and NP's in the ED, and from what I've seen the PA is more dependent on the MD for guidance where as the NP is more independent. My personal opinion on this is that the PA is trained in the medical model, and has learned to depend, associate, collaborate (whichever) with the MD. The NP has trained with another experienced NP using a nursing model.
Whatever you decide to do, only you can make the decision. However from you post it appears you have already made your decision-you are looking for justification in delaying family planning. Good luck to you in whichever endeavor you choose to pursue.