PMHNP programs all going from MSN to DNP? PMHNP programs all going from MSN to DNP? - pg.2 | allnurses

PMHNP programs all going from MSN to DNP? - page 2

Hi, FIU's PMHNP program recently came off moratorium for their PMHNP program--however, they apparently are changing from a master's degree program in 2013 to a BSN-DNP program in 2014! Is this... Read More

  1. Visit  myelin profile page
    2
    I think the DNP as entry to practice is absurd.
    priorities2 and SycamoreGuy like this.
  2. Visit  Elinor profile page
    1
    Why will an DNP be inherently more expensive and harder to attain? I'm honestly wondering. Don't master's and doctoral classes usually cost about the same per credit hour, on average* (with some variation from school to school)? I thought programs were generally just converting their pre-existing MSN programs to DNP programs. Same education, different degree.

    Also, I can't speak specifically for these nursing degrees, but isn't it generally a lot easier to get financial aid for a doctorate than a master's?

    If all the above is true, I personally would be all for it. The NP curriculum already resembles a doctorate program more than a typical master's program. So it's just giving NP's the more appropriate title, with a more accurate recognition of their level of expertise.


    *random examples of MSN vs. DNP cost per credit hour from a google search, except jefferson which I specifically searched for: jefferson (same), university of colorado (same), cleveland state university (same), duke (were same, now DNP is more), vanderbilt (where the DNP is weirdly way cheaper than the MSN), frontier (dnp is cheaper), MUSC (same)...
    AHester00 likes this.
  3. Visit  Elinor profile page
    0
    Oh, and I don't think anyone is proposing that NP's with MSN's would have to go back to school for a DNP.
  4. Visit  Elinor profile page
    0
    Quote from SycamoreGuy
    All the schools in my area are still offering the MSN for all NP specialties. They have the DNP as a post-masters option but I haven't seen any BSN-DNP programs yet.
    Now that is a huge ripoff.
  5. Visit  harmonizer profile page
    0
    Quote from Elinor
    Oh, and I don't think anyone is proposing that NP's with MSN's would have to go back to school for a DNP.
    That's not the point of the argument. No. Nobody proposing that all MSN have to go back to school. They are already NPs. I am sure most of them don't want to. Nothing they can do with that. I am talking about the DNP being the new entry level for NP. I support for the elimination of BSN-MSN and the change to BSN-DNP. It may not become law but I hope more and more schools will follow this route. I am sure that the online diploma mills will be the last to follow because they wants student to enroll.

    Just like they do not force BS Pharm/MS Pharm to get PharmD. Master DPT does not have to go back for DPT either.
    Last edit by harmonizer on May 16, '13
  6. Visit  Elinor profile page
    0
    Quote from harmonizer
    Nobody proposing that all MSN have to go back to school. They are already NPs.
    harmonizer, l150 just did. That was in response to her post, to clarify.
  7. Visit  mzaur profile page
    1
    Quote from Elinor
    Why will an DNP be inherently more expensive and harder to attain? I'm honestly wondering. Don't master's and doctoral classes usually cost about the same per credit hour, on average* (with some variation from school to school)? I thought programs were generally just converting their pre-existing MSN programs to DNP programs. Same education, different degree.

    Also, I can't speak specifically for these nursing degrees, but isn't it generally a lot easier to get financial aid for a doctorate than a master's?

    If all the above is true, I personally would be all for it. The NP curriculum already resembles a doctorate program more than a typical master's program. So it's just giving NP's the more appropriate title, with a more accurate recognition of their level of expertise.


    *random examples of MSN vs. DNP cost per credit hour from a google search, except jefferson which I specifically searched for: jefferson (same), university of colorado (same), cleveland state university (same), duke (were same, now DNP is more), vanderbilt (where the DNP is weirdly way cheaper than the MSN), frontier (dnp is cheaper), MUSC (same)...
    Perhaps you're forgetting that a DNP, as a doctorate, will require more credit hours than an MSN, which is a masters. In the end, of course it'll be more expensive...

    As for financial aid, it's quite easy to get grad plus loans for any graduate program, masters or doctorate. The degree does not make a difference.
    elkpark likes this.
  8. Visit  Elinor profile page
    0
    Isn't there a lot of variation in the number of credit hours required for degrees at different schools, and for different specialties, etc.?
  9. Visit  nursing_student93 profile page
    0
    Quote from Elinor
    Isn't there a lot of variation in the number of credit hours required for degrees at different schools, and for different specialties, etc.?
    I can't speak to DNP programs, but there are 5 different MSN programs I plan to apply to. One is 3 semesters in length (12 mos total) and one is 7 quarters (fall-winter-spring-summer-fall-winter-spring), or the equivalent of 5 semester. I definitely think there is a range!
  10. Visit  _zoubisoubisou_ profile page
    0
    I realize this is an old thread, but I have a question...or two.

    What is the difference in time of a MSN/DNP for PMHNP?
    What are the salary differences for those two titles?
  11. Visit  umbdude profile page
    1
    Quote from _zoubisoubisou_
    I realize this is an old thread, but I have a question...or two.

    What is the difference in time of a MSN/DNP for PMHNP?
    What are the salary differences for those two titles?
    The difference in time varies among programs. The schools I've looked at in my area will require anywhere between 27 to 44 (typically around 30) additional credits for DNP (2-3 additional years). There is no salary differences that I know of.
    _zoubisoubisou_ likes this.
  12. Visit  Goldenfox profile page
    1
    All NP schools are gradually phasing out the master's degree or planning to do so eventually, not (in most cases) because of a mandate but because, strategically as well as financially, it makes sense for them to do so. It means keeping students in school much longer and collecting a whole lot more of that high (and ever-increasing) graduate tuition. Many of us choose not to do the DNP because we can. Future NP students will not have that choice. The master's degree programs are already no longer being offered by some universities.

    Someone raised the issue of 'grandfathering' of existing NPs where the DNP is concerned. I'm not so sure that existing NPs won't be required to go back and do the DNP---even if it isn't a clinical degree and even if having it doesn't mean that you're going to get more pay. This is a political issue...the type that blows with the wind. I remember when nursing academia and the hospitals first began saying that they need to raise the minimum standard of nursing practice to the BSN, and I remember that the pushback from nurses was HUGE! Back then, most nurses had only associate degrees and a lot of them were adamantly refusing to go back to school. They insisted that the BSN as the new standard would never happen. But, it did. These days, many facilities will not hire an RN who doesn't have a BSN (or some other type of bachelor's degree), and I have seen that some employers are requiring that their current nursing staff go back to school and get the BSN within a certain time frame or risk losing their jobs. I also remember when employers used to pay maybe 50 cents or a dollar or so an hour more after you got your BSN degree---which wasn't too bad an incentive. But those days are long gone. Now they are expecting you to have the BSN when you apply for the job and they won't pay you one penny more just for having it. No matter how much nursing experience you have they still want that BSN, and if you haven't got it then there's a pretty good chance that somebody else will get that job that you're applying for. RN to BSN programs suddenly began to pop up all over the place, not because most ADN-RNs wanted to go back to school but because most HAD TO in order to be competitive in the job market.

    The way I see it, the competition for NP jobs will eventually become such that employers will simply cherry pick from among those with the highest academic credentials. Some people say that this will never happen, but it's kinda like the 'BSN' thing all over again. It can happen. And it will. Eventually.
    ICUman likes this.
  13. Visit  xenogenetic profile page
    2
    Quote from Goldenfox
    All NP schools are gradually phasing out the master's degree or planning to do so eventually, not (in most cases) because of a mandate but because, strategically as well as financially, it makes sense for them to do so. It means keeping students in school much longer and collecting a whole lot more of that high (and ever-increasing) graduate tuition. Many of us choose not to do the DNP because we can. Future NP students will not have that choice. The master's degree programs are already no longer being offered by some universities.

    Someone raised the issue of 'grandfathering' of existing NPs where the DNP is concerned. I'm not so sure that existing NPs won't be required to go back and do the DNP---even if it isn't a clinical degree and even if having it doesn't mean that you're going to get more pay. This is a political issue...the type that blows with the wind. I remember when nursing academia and the hospitals first began saying that they need to raise the minimum standard of nursing practice to the BSN, and I remember that the pushback from nurses was HUGE! Back then, most nurses had only associate degrees and a lot of them were adamantly refusing to go back to school. They insisted that the BSN as the new standard would never happen. But, it did. These days, many facilities will not hire an RN who doesn't have a BSN (or some other type of bachelor's degree), and I have seen that some employers are requiring that their current nursing staff go back to school and get the BSN within a certain time frame or risk losing their jobs. I also remember when employers used to pay maybe 50 cents or a dollar or so an hour more after you got your BSN degree---which wasn't too bad an incentive. But those days are long gone. Now they are expecting you to have the BSN when you apply for the job and they won't pay you one penny more just for having it. No matter how much nursing experience you have they still want that BSN, and if you haven't got it then there's a pretty good chance that somebody else will get that job that you're applying for. RN to BSN programs suddenly began to pop up all over the place, not because most ADN-RNs wanted to go back to school but because most HAD TO in order to be competitive in the job market.

    The way I see it, the competition for NP jobs will eventually become such that employers will simply cherry pick from among those with the highest academic credentials. Some people say that this will never happen, but it's kinda like the 'BSN' thing all over again. It can happen. And it will. Eventually.
    The director of my NP program told me that at this moment, the DNP demand is not there and that she knows of several schools that had tried going DNP only and had to offer the MSN again because they had DNP faculty that was commanding salaries but there was a lack of students. In fact, and sadly, the program switched gears and is marketing the MSN program to neighboring states (i.e. RI) as well as starting a PA program in 2016 instead of pouring resources trying to force the DNP program.
    chare and elkpark like this.

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