B&M vs Online - page 2

I see a whole lot of hate for the online Nurse Practitioner programs. I'm wondering if anyone has any statistics regarding poor performance based on whether a NP went the traditional route versus... Read More

  1. by   shibaowner
    Jules, you are entitled to your opinion. However, you are incorrect on two counts.
    1) There are indeed global rankings of nursing schools
    New Ranking of the World’s Top Nursing Schools | Top Universities
    2) We have had this discussion elsewhere, but the studies that have been done have shown that RN experience actually has NEGATIVE correlation with NP clinical skills and also with MSN academic success.
    3) You seem to have a very negative view of NP education in general. I don't know what this is based on. The only thing that matters is outcomes. Your personal biases are irrelevant. Why don't you back up your allegations? I've noticed you never do.
    4) As far as online for-profit schools, it depends. Look, if you go to a top-ranked school, but do poorly you are going to be worse off than someone who went to a lesser-ranked school but was an excellent student (academics and clinical). Your prior experience will also matter - if you have solid experience that is a big plus.
    5) There are many paths to a successful career. I know an extremely successful CRNA who started out as a "tech," got her RN at a community college and so on. Your posts seem designed to discourage people from becoming NPs, which is unfortunate.
  2. by   Stepney
    Quote from Owlgal
    Can I ask, though, how we know that these online programs will admit "anyone who can pay"? See, to me that is an aspersion that cannot be readily supported. Aren't these programs sufficient enough so that their graduates pass boards? -- Or are we saying that boards aren't enough?

    I see questions on here from new NPs (and I don't know whether they went online or B&M for their education) that seem pretty basic questions for an adult professional. Things like what lidocaine percentage to use, salary negotiations, ethics, etc. And then I think, "Holy crap, this person is, what, 25 years old with zero healthcare experience prior to NP school!" -- no wonder physicians are all up in arms about NPs.
    Salary negotiations is quite complex, depending where you work. Working as an NP for a physician is different from working for a hospital as a nurse and you don't have as many protections. No NP should think that they have it all down at any time in their career. If you're transitioning from nurse to NP, you won't know what's considered a fair salary, so it's best to get advise from NPs in the area, then get a lawyer to go over the contract. Employers are not in business so that you can make a great living!
  3. by   Jules A
    Quote from shibaowner
    Jules, you are entitled to your opinion. However, you are incorrect on two counts.
    1) There are indeed global rankings of nursing schools
    New Ranking of the World’s Top Nursing Schools | Top Universities
    2) We have had this discussion elsewhere, but the studies that have been done have shown that RN experience actually has NEGATIVE correlation with NP clinical skills and also with MSN academic success.
    3) You seem to have a very negative view of NP education in general. I don't know what this is based on. The only thing that matters is outcomes. Your personal biases are irrelevant. Why don't you back up your allegations? I've noticed you never do.
    4) As far as online for-profit schools, it depends. Look, if you go to a top-ranked school, but do poorly you are going to be worse off than someone who went to a lesser-ranked school but was an excellent student (academics and clinical). Your prior experience will also matter - if you have solid experience that is a big plus.
    5) There are many paths to a successful career. I know an extremely successful CRNA who started out as a "tech," got her RN at a community college and so on. Your posts seem designed to discourage people from becoming NPs, which is unfortunate.
    Not incorrect just unaware that there are global rankings of nursing schools, is Top Universities a reputable site? Not saying either way because I don't know but yeah, mine is up there and actually ahead of one people add on this site as extra fabu, lol. FWIW I am not making allegations about nursing education. I am expressing concerns and sharing my individual experience and opinion as someone who has completed 2 NP programs with first hand knowledge of diagnoses and prescribing patterns of patients of local NPs who I admitted to my acute psychiatric unit after they decompensated n=1 so theres that.

    Until recently I was a huge champion of my RN peers becoming NPs however as I have posted, again my opinion only, I have grave concerns at the present based on the product I am seeing and the sheer numbers being churned out.

    In addition to competence very high on my list of concerns is the wage issue. In my area new grad PMH-NPs make $150,000 right out of school so the increasing numbers as well as those who are nothing short of clueless as to how to negotiate or what an appropriate wage is in this specialty I remain concerned and far more particular about who I encourage to pursue this profession.
  4. by   shibaowner
    Jules,
    We need good NPs, especially in mental health. At least here in California, we have an acute shortage of mental health professionals, as well as primary care providers, especially in the inland areas of the state. I think it is important for NPs to encourage young people who are interested in this field. There will always be "clueless individuals" in every crowd, unfortunately, and I don't see any way to prevent that. There are also plenty of incompetent and unethical MDs. Respectfully, you seem to enjoy taking pot shots are everyone, without citing evidence other than anecdotes, and without providing solutions. I am concerned that this will discourage good people. So far, you have put down for-profit, online schools and you have also sneered at the highly ranked nursing schools. You have put down the importance of "book learning," but decried California's lack of a PMHNP certification requirement by saying one needs the academic prep to practice psych. You claim NPs need to have RN experience when the evidence does not support your assertion. These are not the statements of a positive, constructive professional.
  5. by   Jules A
    Quote from shibaowner
    Jules,
    We need good NPs, especially in mental health. At least here in California, we have an acute shortage of mental health professionals, as well as primary care providers, especially in the inland areas of the state. I think it is important for NPs to encourage young people who are interested in this field. There will always be "clueless individuals" in every crowd, unfortunately, and I don't see any way to prevent that. There are also plenty of incompetent and unethical MDs. Respectfully, you seem to enjoy taking pot shots are everyone, without citing evidence other than anecdotes, and without providing solutions. I am concerned that this will discourage good people. So far, you have put down for-profit, online schools and you have also sneered at the highly ranked nursing schools. You have put down the importance of "book learning," but decried California's lack of a PMHNP certification requirement by saying one needs the academic prep to practice psych. You claim NPs need to have RN experience when the evidence does not support your assertion. These are not the statements of a positive, constructive professional.
    Actually I'm kind of on the fence about the online thing and will have to accept it like tele-medicine although not my preference definitely the way of the future, lol.
  6. by   prelift
    Bad candidates go to bad schools because they are easy.


    There are no easy med schools in america.

    There are tons of easy NP schools.

    Anybody can dunk a ball on a one foot high goal but not everyone can dunk on a 12 foot high goal or however high they are, I hate basketball.


    Lectures are pointless but somehow people have to be tested on his or her knowledge prior to clinicals (tests)



    Tests serve the purpose of basic understanding of the material, if you are at an online discussion post NP crapatorium, there is no guarantee you will know anything.

    NP board exam was way too easy back when i took it. Maybe that has changed but probably not.
  7. by   TicTok411
    Quote from Jules A
    Actually I'm kind of on the fence about the online thing and will have to accept it like tele-medicine although not my preference definitely the way of the future, lol.
    Tele-medicine is the future especially if the GOP cuts medicaid and we see many of the rural hospitals close.
  8. by   Owlgal
    Quote from Dodongo
    The importance does not lie in whether the didactic content is delivered online or if you're sitting in a lecture hall. It's the quality of candidates admitted to the program and the quality of the program itself.
    Everyone would agree with your statement (to an extent), as it seems obvious. But do we know that the "quality of the candidates" is somehow lesser and that the quality of the program itself, is lacking? Can you (or anyone) point to data that suggests that candidates from online programs (that you, at least) deem inferior, are actually turning out incompetent or borderline competent NPs? Are the certification rates that much different? Do we have scores of anecdotal stories about a few online schools that "always" seem to turn out terrible NPs?

    Or is the fear-mongering because you don't like the "trailer trash" NPs horning in on the NP gig? -- I get that mentality, I really do. It irks me to see how "easy" RN schools seem to be on their students. Laid back clinicals and none of the starch and fear that permeated my RN school days. But, is it that they turn out worse nurses? -- I don't really think so.
  9. by   Dodongo
    Quote from Owlgal
    Can you (or anyone) point to data that suggests that candidates from online programs (that you, at least) deem inferior, are actually turning out incompetent or borderline competent NPs?
    You didn't understand my comment. In my opinion, whether or not a school is distance or on campus is of no consequence. The type of students admitted to either type of program is what matters. If an online program admits high caliber students, and the program is of a high quality, then that NP will probably be a good practitioner. Conversely, if an in person program has low/no admission standards and a poorly constructed curriculum, then the graduate NPs will probably be fairly awful.

    I am attending a hybrid program and am loving it. Some classes are recorded lectures and mostly reading, while others are live lectures. I have to go to campus for standardized patient scenarios, skills labs, etc. And all of my tests are proctored. Online programs can be done appropriately, however, there are many that are terrible and embarrassing and should be shut down.
  10. by   mar1ama
    Quote from Dodongo
    You didn't understand my comment. In my opinion, whether or not a school is distance or on campus is of no consequence. The type of students admitted to either type of program is what matters. If an online program admits high caliber students, and the program is of a high quality, then that NP will probably be a good practitioner. Conversely, if an in person program has low/no admission standards and a poorly constructed curriculum, then the graduate NPs will probably be fairly awful.

    I am attending a hybrid program and am loving it. Some classes are recorded lectures and mostly reading, while others are live lectures. I have to go to campus for standardized patient scenarios, skills labs, etc. And all of my tests are proctored. Online programs can be done appropriately, however, there are many that are terrible and embarrassing and should be shut down.
    Hello,
    If you don't mind sharing, where do you go and which state do you live in? Thanks in advance.
  11. by   Dodongo
    I'll PM you.
  12. by   mar1ama
    Ok sounds good
  13. by   Owlgal
    Quote from Dodongo
    You didn't understand my comment. In my opinion, whether or not a school is distance or on campus is of no consequence. The type of students admitted to either type of program is what matters. If an online program admits high caliber students, and the program is of a high quality, then that NP will probably be a good practitioner. Conversely, if an in person program has low/no admission standards and a poorly constructed curriculum, then the graduate NPs will probably be fairly awful.

    I am attending a hybrid program and am loving it. Some classes are recorded lectures and mostly reading, while others are live lectures. I have to go to campus for standardized patient scenarios, skills labs, etc. And all of my tests are proctored. Online programs can be done appropriately, however, there are many that are terrible and embarrassing and should be shut down.
    I did understand your comment, I simply am wondering HOW DO YOU KNOW that the programs that you mention are so "easy" are turning out less qualified NPs? -- Simply because you assume lower entrance standards and what you deem to be a poor curriculum (having never attended the schools in question) must equate to poorer NPs doesn't necessarily make it so. That is why I asked if you had any data to back up the assertion. I even asked about anecdotal stories of unqualified NPs that seem to all come from the same "terrible" schools. If we don't have data that clearly points out that these terrible online (for profit) NP programs are truly turning out poor performing NPs, then it just sounds like a bunch of complaining because "those NPs are stealing our jobs" or some-such.

    If I had wanted to go to med school, I would have. It's not the model of healthcare that I wish to operate under -- and so I choose to be an NP. I have zero desire to become a medical doctor. They don't teach the skills that I find most helpful to my patients in medical school, it seems. It is a rare physician who has the right combination of skill, knowledge, empathy, and the ability to communicate effectively with patients.

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