What's REALLY with the hospitals using Magnet as a cover for wanting BSN only nurses? - page 14

I'm in an associate degree RN program. I have a previous BA in Psychology and just finished up my last two classes online to also get my BS in Business Administration. I have worked for over a year... Read More

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    While I do agree with the current economic situation, I have every intention of carrying through what I said I was going to do. That is informing the public about what's really driving the BSN and Magnet Status pushes. And its all about money. A nurse is a nursing professional as long as they passed their licensing exam whether they graduated from a diploma, Associates or Bachelor's. Just like 20 ounces of cereal is still 20 ounces no matter what type of box you package it in. I went three yr program straight through the summers and did the same amount of as any BSN who went four years with summers off. Actually I have much respect for nurses who graduated from associate's programs because it takes much diligence and self-discipline to accomplish all that work in a condensed two year period.

    The people that are driving the BSN push are the very ones who stand to benefit by having nurses run back to school. It's like Pepsi Cola producing a study that says those who Pepsi as opposed to other colas tend to be in better health. Let's see how safe people feel when they learn area hospitals area hospitals are hiring non-experienced BSN graduates over nurses with many years of experience. let's see how nurses feel when they learn some of the money they pay in dues to the ANA and their state's nursing associations are being used to bush for BSN mandates as well influence area hospitals to only hire BSN nurses. And as I said once they have most nurses running back for BSNs they start pushing the MSN then the doctorate. So if nurses want to keep paying dues to ensure they'll be running back to school and in debt for the rest of their lives to make the lives of those in academia more cushy, then don't speak up and keep on taking it. But I know most nurses are better than that. And after one or two nurses speak up in protest then more will. As academic elitists try to perpetuate the fallacies of one study to influence area hospitals to only hire BSN nurses, diploma and associates programs will shut down. This will leave prospective students no choice but to attend the much higher priced four year schools.

    It's not about elevating the profession, it's about elevating someone's revenue. If a nurse feels they need more initials after their name to be respected then they may not have enough self-respect to begin with and no amount of alphabet letters will make a difference. Respect is earned by being experienced, doing a good job and exuding confidence about it.

    What there were allowed to do with PT/OT and Pharmacology was a sham. Higher education has become a business racket just like magnet status is merely a market tactic meant to make the uninformed general public feel better about one hospital verses another.
    I have been talking to newspapers and news stations and I will do everything to make the general public aware of what the BSN and Magnet Status pushes are all about. I will also let the public know why they should try to avoid those hospitals that are forcing their nurses to earn BSNs under the threat of termination if they don't. And don't worry nurses. This cycle happens about every 15 years. There is a glut of nurses that will be retiring soon as jobs will once again be plentiful.

    Now if academic and hospital management elitists don't like the fact that I will tell it like it is, they don't have to. But that is what is what is and what it will be. And I know they must not like it since they have people trying to discredit me. But that's fine, they're just throwing more logs on the fire and giving me more incentive to move ahead.

    If some nurses want to spend the rest of their lives in school earning initials, that's fine. But don't push it on the rest of us because more of us will be pushing back from now on.
    Szasz_is_Right and Woopsadaisy like this.

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    Last edit by Susie2310 on Feb 16, '13
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    SummitRN and melmarie23 like this.
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    Quote from SummitRN
    Why should nurses have lesser educational requirements than teachers, an office worker, etc. Radiation technologists and respiratory therapists are transitioning to bachelors entry. People are going to wonder why nurses are paid more than these people with less educational credentials. You might not like it, but that is our world.

    Ultimately, there is a glut of nurses, particularly new nurses. The market wants BSNs. The market will get what it wants, particularly when demand is low and supply is high. If you have an oversupply and fail to leverage problem into an opportunity by progressing standards, then wages WILL FALL (and they have). That is simple economics. You don’t have to like it; it is what it is.

    OT/PT/Pharm and more upped their educational minimums. Look what it has done for those professions.

    I came to nursing from EMS. The reason I came to nursing is because EMS is a stagnant vocation in the USA. In EMS, the top level provider, paramedic, has in some areas a minimum of 600 hours of vocational training and a GED. Why require an associates degree? They take the same NREMT-P exam as the vo-techs! Who needs that college learning? However, these same folks will complain about their low wages and limited scopes. They also have a major problem where EMS educators usually don’t have a degree or have equal education to the level they are teaching and there is a whole lot of issues with teaching the latest EBP because they teach “the way I’ve always done it and was taught.” EMS is paid dirt, when it is paid. and is usually a short term stint or a stepping stone in the US.

    In other countries like Canada, New Zealand, and Australia, there is a university educational requirement for EMS and it is a well paid professionally respected career similar to nursing with a broad scope. In the US, there is resistance to professional progression. Particularly, an EMS argument against an associates minimum is that the paramedic portion of an AS degree takes the same amount of time as a vocational program! Some of them do understand that with a broader body of knowledge coming into a paramedic course with college A&P and other prereqs. We hear similar criticism about the nursing portion of US BSN programs having a similar length to ADN programs. No doubt! I do agree with the criticism of some BSN fluff courses. IMHO, there is a lot of fluff in nursing in general, at whatever level, compared to say engineering. I find most “nursing theory” to be mental masturbation. NANDA is a joke to me. IMHO, nursing would be more respected if we cut out the fluff and put in more stats, patho, and longer clinicals. In other countries, like Canada, bachelors is the minimum for nursing!

    I don’t really know much about RN->BSN courses, but I do know that if you have a bachelors, you can probably get your BSN with a year of part time school because you have the liberal arts education out of the way. I do know that some of the better BSN completion programs teach upper division healthcare ethics, EBP, patho/research/best-practice updates, community health with clinical, and other worthwhile courses. I see leadership courses... which can be a good thing... I think it stinks if an employer gives a 3 years, BSN or termination, without tuition assistance. That is crummy. However, that is where the market is at. If they give tuition support, nobody should complain about professional development.

    But, since I teach non-transferrable outdoor classes at a junior college, I'm apparently part of the conspiracy... so I will now yield the floor to more paranoia, appeals to anonymous authority, circumstance ad hominem, guilt by association, sweeping generalizations, and other textbook examples of rhetological fallacies.
    ^haha about this "conspiracy...."

    I enjoy being a BSN, at a Magnet hospital, in the Philadelphia, PA area...I am EXCITED that they want to increase people in getting their education with the "Pro-BSN conspiracy" ...
    If that will get people to a college, rock on...people change their minds and go in to other occupations and coursework and have success...that is a beautiful thing, from a Philadelphia resident that survived the school system.

    I think this is such a dead issue...the future is now...it's trending in the BSN arena. My coursework was neither fluffy or BS...Newer grads have their BSNs. I witness the phasing out of LPNs in acute care at a Magnet hospital I worked for in the early-mid 2000s. I basically got "kicked out" because I did not get my RN. (I failed nursing school and had to go the LPN route) I wanted to be in acute care, I saw that the BSN was gold. It has been like this in my area for 10 years. I didn't say "***** it, I'm not getting it!!!" and then proceed to scream and bang about like a petulant child...nope.

    I sucked it up, gained VALUABLE LPN experience, added to my prereq's got my associates and went for it-got familiar with each program I wanted to get in, and choose between two, and got my money's worth out of my investment that I will be able to complete investing in after 15 years, but the upfront dividends and return is already here, FOR ME.

    I am offensive that more education=academic elitist. The desire to be knowledgeable and inquisitive is not a SIN for crying out loud.

    Philly has been a research hub and Mecca for DECADES. At least 2+ decades. We are respected in our area, and what matters to me, how I was raised, and how I lived my life, and my outlook, RESPECT is PARAMOUNT.

    I respect everyone's life path into nursing be it my path was wrought with setbacks...including a near death incident, so I do get a tad but touchy when the route I took I almost had a chance if not taken is seen filled with distain, myths, PARANOIA...intimidation...you're disrespecting what I had to go through to become an RN.

    The MOST we can do is stop treating our entities that want to elevate the profession as enemies and become a part of the solution. The bar has been raised. People over 15 years experience should be grandfathered in the clinical model and are Experts. There should be a path or even nursing education added through the hospitals if they want to have the BSN percentages increase, by making it affordable, or maybe better yet, if expert nurses are BOARD CERTIFIED (Med Surg, Peds, Geriatric, Critical Care, OR), then that NEGATES the requirement. That's called creating a SUGGESTION for elevating our profession...then move towards the WHY the investment in being knowledgable, board-certified nurses calls for an increase in monetary value; ANSWER: evidenced based mortality rates decrease through our knowledgeable interventions to increasing complex care an responsibility, and have been doing so for the past 30 years without an increase in salary, yet our roles, responsibility, and knowledge is on part with our medical team mates.

    Not trying to be condescending or facetious. There is a time and place for frustrations and ranting, but when that ends, what is LEFT????
    Where is the solution to what ails you???

    We are invaluable, and the research has consistent in proving it. Throw back the research and proof, and let's move on, we need to be out there in our communities, we are teachers, practitioners, too valuable to continue to talk about this subject, IMHO.
    SummitRN and melmarie23 like this.
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    The way I see it, sham/conspiracy or not, we can rant all we want but bottom line is if you want to be hired in a magnet hospital, you have to comply with their qualifications. Otherwise, don't apply there. Even if you have a BSN, it doesn't guarantee a job anyway.

    Instead of ranting about magnet hospitals not wanting ADNs, spend your time finding hospitals who takes ADNs. There are a lot of good hospitals who take ADNs.

    It's like if they listed having an ACLS certification within 90-days of hire, any nurse will do it, right? Because they want to be with the company. Because that's what the company requires. Without any hesitation. I see BSN just like that. If the hospital deems it as a requirement, and you want to work there, you'll get no matter what.

    I don't really understand the resistance of getting a bachelor's degree. At the end of the day, it's not only the hospital who benefits... it's the person getting the degree.
    SummitRN and melmarie23 like this.
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    Speaking as someone with a bachelors AND a masters that are not in nursing, I isimply cannot afford to go back for a second bachelors degree. I would get one if there were some help in paying for it, and/or if it would pay for itself.... But it is not enough of a raise to make it worth my time and money. Plus, I don't think I'd learn anything new I couldn't learn going to NFN or union conventions. Attending the AFLCIO meetings, or the big ANA conventions too.... I am already certified by the ANA. If I go back to school it will be for a PhD, you know? In something that will make enough money to have a phd.I think it could be good for the public's perception of nursing to know nurses all have bachelors, but I have to be honest and say that I still run circles around most BSNs.... Just saying. I am already overqualified, ad they don't pay me for or respect my previous education... Yet, just the fact that I have it speaks volumes. I use all 3 of the degrees I have, daily, as a nurse. Woops, BA, MBA, ASN, RN-BC ....seriously. Look at all the damned letters. I doubt adding BSN to it is going to be meaningful.
    applewhitern likes this.
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    Quote from Woopsadaisy
    I think it could be good for the public's perception of nursing to know nurses all have bachelors, but I have to be honest and say that I still run circles around most BSNs....
    It's interesting how many nurses who don't have a BSN like to say that. Maybe that energy would be better invested in building more political power for nursing so that the nursing profession determines what education is important for the profession, rather than market forces.
    SummitRN likes this.
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    I have to agree that a lot of ADN prepared nurses already have a bachelor's degree in another field. I already had a degree, but had to take enough classes to earn enough credits at the particular school I went to, in order to graduate. My ADN program was at a 4 year university, too. I keep reading here that people go to the "community college" to get an ADN, but here in my area, there are four, 4-year universities that offer the ADN. The only difference between my ADN and my BSN was a couple of humanities courses and a couple of elective nursing courses that really had nothing to do with nursing. Simply put, it is all about the money. The ADN and BSN students were all in the same nursing classes; the main difference, like I said, was the BSN's took more humanities. Plus, if a class you previously took is "too old" the college won't accept it.
    Szasz_is_Right and Nurse Leigh like this.
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    Ladies and Gentlemen, please.

    Cannot believe that for >50 years this tired and sad BSN debate is still raging and dividing professional nurses.

    For a profession that supposedly has moved on from the pillow plumping, bed making and providing "hotel" services it seems nothing else aside from the mention of caps or whites causes more noise. All to what end? I remember this debate from the 1980's coming from nurses who themselves recalled it from the 1970's, and yet here we are in 2013 still raking the thing over the coals.

    Being as all this may there is enough information out there aside from the famous (or infamous) Atkins study for anyone interested to at least begin doing research regarding BSN and higher educated nurses in relation to patient outcomes.

    Posted a few above but here is another from the Hospital for Special Surgery here in NYC, a Magnet facility ranked number one is nursing care amoung City hospitals.


    If professional nursing has truly moved beyond merely "training" nurses to educating them to use the same scientific methods and logic often found with physicans and other medical professionals. Emotions and even hysterics won't win the day as long as those who run hospitals and healthcare are mainly men and physicans. That lot by education and nature tends to respond to facts, numbers and other data either supporting or disproving a theory.

    Using the above and other posted data there seems to be more than a casual link between a higher educated nursing staff versus one mainly composed of associate grads and better patient outcomes.

    HAI, bedsores, and several other areas seem to all have lower rates when a larger percentage of BSN nurses and above are on staff. The question is why.

    Notice also one left out diploma nurses from my above statement. For some reason those grads (or what is left of them for in many states like NY there are few if any such programs remaining), rank either equal to BSN educated nurses or in between them and associates.
    hiddencatRN, SummitRN, and llg like this.
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    Hello nurses. Something you should find interesting. During a conversation I had with a representative from a nurse’s association, it was stated that unless a nurse has a Bachelor’s degree, they are not considered a professional.

    So how does that make all you nurses feel who worked for years with a diploma or associates degree that you were not considered a professional in the eyes of people who claim they represent nurses. And that applies to all you nurses who went on to get a BSN or MSN. During all that time you worked before you obtained those degrees, you were not considered a professional. Now you know why I use the term elitist. And I’m sure it’s not just that one state nurse’s association who feels that way. And that statement coming from people who probably haven’t touched a patient since Bill Clinton was in office.

    Do you still want to support people who think so less of you as nurses so as to refer to you as a non-professional. This my friends is the attitude driving the BSN push.

    As I know from dealing with those in academia in the past, when someone speaks out, their primary defense is to say; everyone else is going along and no one else has a problem, you’re the only one. I expect these responses as their way of thinking has a common pathway as a feeble attempt to try to rationalize something they themselves know is self-serving and wrong but don’t want others to know.

    Here is a review of the 2011 NCLEX pass rates of those from various nursing programs.


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