NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 34

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   psalm
    Quote from sushiart
    I believe that if Nurses wish to be paid and treated as professionals they need to have a higher standard of education period. I do agree that nurses without a BSN can be great...but the fact of tha matter is this...if we dont do anything to advance our standings professionally where are we left? I am all for grandfathering the established RN's, but all the incoming nurses NEED a BSN, period, to hold some leverage in our jobs, etc.

    Nurses in the future should all have a BSN, or else stay a LPN or CNA and work as such...A BSN allows us to be considered professional and have the background and abilities to indeed support it. A 4 yr degree is not a bad thing...change is good, especially in our case. Dont be a dinosaur and stay a doormat fighting it. Otherwise there are plenty of foreign nurses salivating to get a AS degree and take out more spots on low pay, crap standards, etc....Nurses need to make a stand, and without the "clout" of a BSN college degree and not from some shoddy 2 yr joke, we are not going to make it better for us or anyone in the future. Think of someone else other than you right now, while considering why this change is good.

    A strong case for higher wages and better working conditions will only be solved by 100% of the workforce holding a 4 yr degree and coming together in a soild unified front to fight for better professional pay and standards deserving. Truth is, a AS wont ever cut it as it is, except as a joke amongst those with BS degrees and higher. If you believe otherwise you are naive as they come. Its a cruel place, and we keep sticking our heads in the sand.

    ...I am all for more education, yet the above, esp. the "shoddy 2 year joke" comment is what I am against!! Even our LPNs have to take pre-reqs of the same A&P, micro and medical ethics. Many of us are not saying that a BSN is a bad thing, but it does not make a better nurse.
  2. by   leslie :-D
    sushi,

    if you're talking 'perception', then i agree, we might get a tad more respect from the medical profession.
    it's still pretentious. how is that respect going to manifest itself? do you truly think that once one has a bsn, then suddenly, a voice will be qualified to echo all of nursing's discontents? nothing will change, i assure you. we have nurses leaving in droves, because of unconscionable working conditions. how will having a bsn change that? do you think that once we all have our bsn's, we will suddenly put our collective feet down and not take it anymore? damn it, we should be doing that now! and it does not take a bsn to do so. if every single nurse chose not to be treated like a worthless workhorse, then clearly something would have to change. the problem is there will always be someone who will work under these conditions. but i also see and hear of too many nurses remaining in jobs that jeopardizes their health, their licenses and their pts. do you think hospital administration cares? hell, the more pts, the better. we all know it's the revenue they care about. if they see a profession (us) that takes on a load of high risk patients (and they all come w/their own set of implications), knowing it's OUR licenses on the line, tell me they're not laughing at us! and you think just by merit of having a bsn that we still wouldn't take on these pt loads? again, the bsn won't make a damn bit of difference. whether it's individually or collectively, as a profession we have to be mad as hell and we won't take it anymore.....period. until nsg is proactive in negating the effects of being treated like a bunch of jungle monkeys, then nothing will change. nothing. bedside nurses w/bsn's do not enjoy a pay differential now.
    and i'll bet my bottom dollar that making bsn a minimum entry standard will not afford us more credibility. we have to start saying "no more", all of us. we need to be cohesive. i don't see this happening. all i can do is ascertain my self-worth by adhering to the aforementioned. i wish we all felt like, "how dare they treat us that way!" but people complain and remain in hopeless and dangerous situations. it should be a no-brainer, zero tolerance. having a bsn will not change these conditions. a healthcare catastrophe (which we're almost there) and/or a ubiquitous 'no more' will afford our pts and ourselves, the consideration and respect that has fallen by the wayside.

    leslie
  3. by   astnm
    I too agree that if we as professionals want to be treated like professionals then we need to require an entry level Bachelor of nursing degree. I will be graduating in December with my BSN. One of the reasons I wanted to go for the BSN instead of the ADN was to gain respect. I do not doubt that ADN nurses are as well prepared as BSN nurses, however, I do know that most people view associate degrees with less respect than bachelor degrees. What most people do not know, however, is that an associate degree in nursing is much different and usually takes much longer than the average associate degree in any other field to aquire. Unfortunately the degree awarded still has the tendency to be thought of as being just an associate degree. I do not want to downplay the program. I just want to point out the way the degree is viewed by others. Because nearly all other medical professions require a minimum of a bachelors degree, registered nurses should too.
  4. by   NephroBSN
    Quote from earle58
    sushi,

    if you're talking 'perception', then i agree, we might get a tad more respect from the medical profession.
    it's still pretentious. how is that respect going to manifest itself? do you truly think that once one has a bsn, then suddenly, a voice will be qualified to echo all of nursing's discontents? nothing will change, i assure you. we have nurses leaving in droves, because of unconscionable working conditions. how will having a bsn change that? do you think that once we all have our bsn's, we will suddenly put our collective feet down and not take it anymore? damn it, we should be doing that now! and it does not take a bsn to do so. if every single nurse chose not to be treated like a worthless workhorse, then clearly something would have to change. the problem is there will always be someone who will work under these conditions. but i also see and hear of too many nurses remaining in jobs that jeopardizes their health, their licenses and their pts. do you think hospital administration cares? hell, the more pts, the better. we all know it's the revenue they care about. if they see a profession (us) that takes on a load of high risk patients (and they all come w/their own set of implications), knowing it's OUR licenses on the line, tell me they're not laughing at us! and you think just by merit of having a bsn that we still wouldn't take on these pt loads? again, the bsn won't make a damn bit of difference. whether it's individually or collectively, as a profession we have to be mad as hell and we won't take it anymore.....period. until nsg is proactive in negating the effects of being treated like a bunch of jungle monkeys, then nothing will change. nothing. bedside nurses w/bsn's do not enjoy a pay differential now.
    and i'll bet my bottom dollar that making bsn a minimum entry standard will not afford us more credibility. we have to start saying "no more", all of us. we need to be cohesive. i don't see this happening. all i can do is ascertain my self-worth by adhering to the aforementioned. i wish we all felt like, "how dare they treat us that way!" but people complain and remain in hopeless and dangerous situations. it should be a no-brainer, zero tolerance. having a bsn will not change these conditions. a healthcare catastrophe (which we're almost there) and/or a ubiquitous 'no more' will afford our pts and ourselves, the consideration and respect that has fallen by the wayside.

    leslie

    Just a thought. Are there more ADN educated nurses than BSN's?

    If so why aren't they a force to be reckoned with.

    Also, I have no problem with any of them putting ADN after RN on their badge and signing their charts that way. I would never be offended by that.
  5. by   battpos
    [quote=astnm] What most people do not know, however, is that an associate degree in nursing is much different and usually takes much longer than the average associate degree in any other field to aquire.

    But we who are so acutely aware of the weight of an ADN do afford it the respect it should have (or at least, in my opinion, we should).
    Personally, as I began to take my prerequisite courses, I realized that the difference between the two programs -- ADN and BSN -- was quite minimal. To me, then, the choice was obvious -- take those humanities classes and get the BSN.
    Now that I actually am well on my way to earning my BSN, I now have realized (I've only recently discovered allnurses.com) that my earning power will not be significantly improved with my BSN.
    Why is that?
    Am I talking in circles?
    The reason a BSN's pay is equal to an ADN's pay is that in reality, both programs only differ because of some fluffy humanities requirements and some cock-eyed nursing theories course which anyone could pass in their sleep -- and which are also totally irrelevant to the working professional nurse.
    No doubt, however, someone somewhere will believe that a BSN is somehow a superior degree to the ADN. I'm hoping I meet many such people, so they may open doors of opportunity for me and my BSN.
  6. by   zenman
    Quote from NHNurseMan

    As you have the in and outs of both, perhaps you can further discuss what exactly is the difference in the "NURSING" education one gets from an ASN as opposed to that which one receives through a BSN.
    I've posted this before but here it is again for your review (from a school that teaches both programs).

    Associate of Science in Nursing
    A two-year technical degree nursing education program that prepares graduates for basic nursing care in hospitals and long term care settings.

    Bachelor of Science in Nursing
    A four-year professional nursing education program that includes liberal arts education preparing graduates for beginning nursing practice in a wide variety of settings including acute and long term care, community and school health and critical care.
  7. by   DusktilDawn
    Quote from sushiart
    If the 4 yr degree thing for foreign nurses is true...how long till they wise up to it and get them in droves...undercutting moreso into the job market.

    Its a matter of simple Econ 101...
    Hate to break it to you Sushiart, but American hospital are recruiting foreign nurses in droves.

    There is a world wide shortage of nurses, it's not solely an American problem, in fact they now have to compete with European countries to recruit nurses from abroad in places like the Phillipines for example. I live in Canada, it is unbelievable how actively American hospitals are recruiting over here, and Canada is not the only country American hospitals are recruiting from. This has been going on since the mid 90's. In fact, I work in Michigan and the largest groups of forgein nurses recruited abroad to work here are Canadian and Phillipino. Guess what? Hasn't undercut the job market much, in fact finding a nursing job isn't a problem.

    BSN is a requirement in the Phillipines, guess what, the working conditions and wages there for nurses suck, so much for BSN entry level doing a lot for nurses in that country. In fact the Phillipines have about 350 schools pumping out new BSN grads.
    http://www.pcij.org/stories/2005/nurses.html
  8. by   SmilingBluEyes
    thread is very near being closed for moderator discussion and time-out. please stay focused on the subject and refrain from inflammatory language and attacks!

    despite this being a contentious and hotly-debated issue, there is no call for personal attacks or putting down others' educational choices with poorly-worded remarks.

    terms of service (tos) prohibit direct attacks/flames. if you are all unclear, please review them.

    also, in case we have not noticed, no one seems to win the old "bsn versus adn" argument; there are numerous threads on the subject already. this is not a new debate. there is always room for polite and reasonable discourse, however.

    thank you for understanding.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on May 10, '06
  9. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from astnm
    One of the reasons I wanted to go for the BSN instead of the ADN was to gain respect.
    how will that respect manifest itself?
    do you plan on working as a bedside nurse?
    if so, will you get lighter patient loads because of having a bsn?
    truly, what kind of respect? i don't understand.


    leslie
  10. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from NephroBSN
    Just a thought. Are there more ADN educated nurses than BSN's?

    If so why aren't they a force to be reckoned with.

    Also, I have no problem with any of them putting ADN after RN on their badge and signing their charts that way. I would never be offended by that.
    again, how does one's credentials reflect on their pt. load?
    how does having a bsn elicit more respect and consideration?

    leslie
  11. by   battpos
    Quote from earle58
    how will that respect manifest itself?
    do you plan on working as a bedside nurse?
    if so, will you get lighter patient loads because of having a bsn?
    truly, what kind of respect? i don't understand.


    leslie

    It's like that lecture in my sociology class: if everyone agrees something is true (like our socially created reality that the hands on a clock on a wall really has a significance), and real; then however abstract -- that becomes reality. By having pursued a BSN rather than an ADN, I have added to the camp that believes that a BSN should have more respect. As I noted in my previous post here, I personally don't buy it (I looked at an ADN program and the BSN program I'm in now; and the truth is: the only difference is the humanities gunk); but as long as there are other professionals in this field who do believe that the BSN is a superior degree... then I might as well take advantage of it. You're right, perhaps I will not enjoy lighter case loads -- but I will have that much more of an edge if the opportunity to get a promotion comes up.
  12. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from battpos
    but I will have that much more of an edge if the opportunity to get a promotion comes up.
    i think you're right, IF one wants to leave the bedside.
    i've been doing hospice for 10+ yrs and i cannot imagine working anywhere else. for those that choose not to work at the bedside, then i agree that a bsn will be advantageous.
    but for those who want to remain in bedside nsg., a bsn is a moot achievement, from a professional perspective.

    leslie
  13. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    Also, in case we have not noticed, no one seems to win the old "BSN versus ADN" argument
    EXACTLY

    Except for one thing. The market ALREADY dictates that ADN will be the so called 'entry' into nursing for some time to come. So, the battle was over before it ever started. THAT is nursing economics 101.

    And THAT being the case, for the ANA to split its potential membership over an issue that is, in effect, a moot point is what is denying nursing the voice that could do wonders for improving out 'professionalism'.

    There are 3 times as many nurses as there are doctors out there and we dwarf in numbers practically EVERY health care profession. But, our national organization chooses to fracture itself by only represent BSNs and APNs ~ less than 30% of nurses when you throw LPNs/LVNs into the mix.

    NO WONDER WE AREN'T PROFESSIONALS. We have no voice. And everytime somebody says: 'We should move to BSN-entry', that voice is fractured a little more, for no reason under the sun; BECAUSE IT'S A MOOT POINT.

    It is the BSN-entry debate ITSELF that robs us of our professional.

    Bottom line: Our allied healthcare professionals will ALWAYS have their opinions colored by their perceptions. You can have a doctorate and the same doctors that now dismiss you as 'just a nurse'; they will THEN, also.

    Our focus shouldn't be on 'putting on airs' for others at the expense of 60% of our profession; now AND in the future. For without ADN, there will be no future pool to no longer grandfather; the BSN programs simply cannot take up the slack.

    No, our focus should be on a united voice. That voice needs 2 KEY elements. 1. End this moot debate. 2. End the intricate linking to liberal politics and make our national advocacy PRO-NURSING instead of pro-left wing causes. With those 2 key changes, we would take a GIANT leap to 'professionalism'.

    This debate though, holds us back. The sad thing is, we are holding ourselves back over a moot point. Sad. I've said this before, and it bears repeating: in a world where 'professional' is just an aspiration; BSNs are no more 'professional' than ADNs. . . and no less.

    The day a national organization accepts all nurses without trying to eliminate them: ANPs, BSNs, ADNs, and LVNs/LPNs - and uses that voice to further NURSING alone; that is the day we can realistically reach out for the brass ring of 'professionalism'.

    If you CHOOOSE to define that professionalism by BSN-entry, not only will that day never come; you're in the wrong 'profession'. Because, by THAT definition, we are ALL 'technical' nurses.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on May 10, '06

close