NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 33

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   sushiart
    If the 4 yr degree thing for foreign nurses is true...how long till they wise up to it and get them in droves...undercutting moreso into the job market.

    Its a matter of simple Econ 101...
  2. by   caroladybelle
    As you have no idea what my educational degree is, and given the punctuation/grammar errors, you might want to watch what stones you throw as to educational responses/replys. Those that live in glass houses, etc.

    It is also intelligent to find those things out before making assumptions.

    Then let us use an educated premise, based on fact.

    There is no indication that requiring a BSN will relieve the current shortage. And nurses have been consistantly polled, that conditions/staffing concerns are paramount. Cutting the amount of staff available to 1/3 of what it is currently is not going to improve conditions or staffing. If RNs are unhappy carrying loads of 5-10 patients, they are going to be less happy and more likely to quit when forced to carry 15-30 patients. And as those unhappy RNs quit (no matter much money that you pay them), the shortage worsens. And more unhappy RNs are carrying for even more patients and they quit.

    Current stats demonstrate that there will be a substantial increase in elderly , ill patients coming over the next 5-20 years. And that there is going to a substantial decrease in percentages of relatively young people coming into the workforce (in any employment arena, not just healthcare) to help support our older population. In a situation such as this, you need more nurses, not less.

    Nurses is also not an attractive career to spend four years in school. Many people foresee spending 4 years in school to do something that keeps their hands clean, have them work M-F, 0800-1700, weekends and holidays. That is not reality for most nurses, as experience quickly teaches us.

    Nursing is frequently dirty, ugly, dangerous, depressing, back breaking work that requires a great deal of common sense (something quite lacking in much of the public) and intelligence, but subjecting us to the worst that humanity offers. We also see heartwarming moments and the best that humanity offers. But for nurses that really do the actual work (not part of the "Pumps and Pearls" management) with patients, the work is not white collar.

    And right now we need nurses in the trenches, not the "Pumps and Pearls" crowd. They might ruin their makeup.

    Of course, this is something that a working nurse learns.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    But if you want to know how BSN only improves the lot of nurses, you might want to note how well nurses are treated in the Philippines. Or in Canada.

    As well as note what they are paid, what their patient loads are, what their benefits are, and how they are treated.

    That might provide some "education" for you.
    Last edit by caroladybelle on May 9, '06
  3. by   caroladybelle
    Quote from sushiart
    If the 4 yr degree thing for foreign nurses is true...how long till they wise up to it and get them in droves...undercutting moreso into the job market.
    Uhhh, try looking in the International forums. They already know and have known for a long time how to come to the US. Hospitals having been importing nurses for ages. And we still have a shortage.
  4. by   SmilingBluEyes
    A "shoddy two year joke"? this kind of insult, these boards can do WITHOUT thank you very much.
  5. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Let's not undercut or put down others' educational choices, please. Thus far, MOST the arguments have been articulate and polite on both "sides", if you will. Let's keep it that way, please. Insults won't be tolerated. Thank you.
  6. by   sushiart
    Well done, catching my spelling errors, yet you also have some...but thats neither here nor there right now.

    As for "shoddy 2 yr education" yes...thats how anyone in professional positions looks at a AS degree...wise up and open your eyes here. Its not an insult, its a fact of educational and workplace culture. We work around tons of people with a 4 yr BS and more, why would they respect a 2 yr AS degree they know has minimum requirements to get in and out,and a woeful lack of support, etc...I have seen both personally inside and out and there is no way I would agree a AS degree is as proficient as a BS overall. Sorry, just not so. All things being equal that is.

    I will continue this later on, but I had to get that in. Cant wait to hear all the good things you guys will say.

  7. by   HealthyRN
    Quote from RN34TX
    The arguement would would be so much more valid if we really could see a significant difference in overall nursing performance from BSN's but most of us do not.

    I've never heard of anyone, other than some BSN's themselves, claim that they perform at a higher level and that the nursing care is a higher quality than what a patient would get from another level of nurse.

    IMHO, by saying that BSN nurses somehow perform at a higher level is just a way to justify their degree. There is much bitterness over the BSN not being acknowledged in terms of pay or status.
    Linda Aiken at the University of Pennsylvania has done some research on patient outcomes and the educational preparation of nurses. You can view the abstract of one article at http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content...ct/290/12/1617 In this case, BSN prepared nurses had a positive effect on patient outcomes. Is this such a bad thing?

    As someone else said, I just don't understand why there is so much arguing over increasing the entry level to practice. I'm not saying that ADN nurses are any less than BSN. But this is 2006! Nearly every health profession is increasing entry level to practice. Physical therapists are moving toward a clinical doctorate for entry level (and it took a relatively short period of time for this to happen!). Nurses will never gain the respect that we deserve from other health professionals or the public until we make this change. I cannot think of another profession that fails to see the value of education.
  8. by   NHNurseMan
    Quote from sushiart
    well done, catching my spelling errors, yet you also have some...but thats neither here nor there right now.

    as for "shoddy 2 yr education" yes...thats how anyone in professional positions looks at a as degree...wise up and open your eyes here. its not an insult, its a fact of educational and workplace culture. we work around tons of people with a 4 yr bs and more, why would they respect a 2 yr as degree they know has minimum requirements to get in and out,and a woeful lack of support, etc...i have seen both personally inside and out and there is no way i would agree a as degree is as proficient as a bs overall. sorry, just not so. all things being equal that is.

    i will continue this later on, but i had to get that in. cant wait to hear all the good things you guys will say.

    perhaps i'm wrong, but one's education in nursing doesn't end with graduation from nursing school, it begins. be it asn, bsn, or imho the highest level of non-graduate nursing degree the underutilized hospital/diploma nursing degree, the true education begins the day you step on the floor as a gn. i just finished today with my asn, and you know what, the surgeon i deal with on monday is going to treat me with little or no respect until i earn it.
    as for you argument that my as is looked upon as shoddy by anyone in the professional community, please explain why my clinical preceptors preferred the minimal requirment to get in and out asn students to the (and i do quote) "u of ? student that knows the theory, but can't quite get hands on to the art of wiping an ***"
    now perhaps that is a bit crass, but i just finished the hardest thing i have ever done and you have the audacity to say that my level of education and my nursing knowledge are less than that of a bsn student.
    as you have the in and outs of both, perhaps you can further discuss what exactly is the difference in the "nursing" education one gets from an asn as opposed to that which one receives through a bsn.
    further, the way in which you deningrate asn programs makes my blood boil.:angryfire :angryfire i am one of the few non-bachelors degree holding students in my graduating class, in fact there are two masters level grads. the level of student in my class is significantly higher than most bachelors progams. it amazes me that someone as obviously educated and experienced as you would make such sweeping remarks when speaking of asn programs. the majority of people entering nursing are those looking for a second career and already have degrees, and it only makes sense for these potential nurses to attend an asn program.
    please realize that i have the utmost respect for any nursing school grad, no matter the program. but respect for a profession has nothing to do with the education and everything to do with the practitioners.

    sorry to ramble but finals week got me here.

    [color="lime"]the leprakan
    finals are done, paper work is all turned in, no more clinical workups, what the heck am i supposed to do now?
    graduation may 20, 2007 (proudly with my asn)
  9. by   leslie :-D
    i do understand the argument for a bsn in entry level nsg.
    i do agree that it will make us 'appear' more professional and so, will receive the respect.
    yet i've been in nsg long enough to know that such degrees, do not automatically elicit said professional behavior.
    furthermore, i've worked beside bachelor, master's, and 2 yr prepared nurses. and ea and every time, i would choose to work with the nurse who has the most experience. just face it, there are certain areas in nsg that a pile of text books can never teach. hands-on smarts is much more valuable to me than book-smarts.
    sometimes i think this educational rally can be rather pretentious.
    why do i think that if all rn's had their bsn's, there would still be the catty b.s. that is so pervasive in our field?
    i have had the privilege of working with some outstanding nurses. some were degreed, others not. it wasn't their degree that made them outstanding. if we want respect, we need to expect it. we shouldn't have to demand it. speaking on an individual basis, i have never been disrespected because i wouldn't allow it. my choice. i can either choose to work in a reprehensible environment, or not. i can either let someone talk to me like dirt, or not. a bsn didn't teach me that. self-respect did.

    leslie
  10. by   sushiart
    PEOPLE...ITS NOT ABOUT HOW "Good" a ASN vs BSN nurse is...for goodness sake!

    It's the perception from the outside and inside people!!! Which we all know is reality! I am SURE plenty of AS educated nurses are SUPERIOR to some BSN and vice versa. But lets be frank here...a professional job requires a professional degree. Get a AS? fine...now go on to get a BS, why is that so bad? Yes there has to be some better incentives, but that can only be done if there is a division of what needs to be done versus what should be done, if you get my drift. Keep the AS....stay as respected as one who may do a great job, but still put in 2 yrs of classes. Look at the other people in the hospitals, etc...BS this, MS that...And we as the largest and most influential career grouping have this horrible conflict in regards to education.

    Get a BS...move up the ladder. See the trend? Why does a BSN have the ability to move on up the career ladder? CRNA, NP, etc...and so on. Why can a AS not do the same if they are both equal in job skills?

    If we cant get agreement on how we need to be looked upon by the rest of the medical professionals who hold higher degrees...we all might as well just keep staying stagnant and just be happy we can churn out enough AS nurses so they can fill the vacant spots the ones prior left for them. Keep getting them into schools like cannon fodder if you will, they dont need to have higher aspirations to become more than a AS RN right? Why bother? Whats gonna change? They wont be paid better, etc... This is the downfall of nursing IMO.

    You all seem to just want to bandage a problem and not really fix it. Fine, good for you and your self serving needs because it wont effect you for many years or at all. Now the rest of us shall (should) lead the profession as a united WHOLE into a new era of respect for the future. I agree wholeheartedly (sp?) that we need to earn respect as a RN, degree or not. But we need more leaders and BSN's to lend clout to the fight to change this, thats just how things work and are viewed. Sorry.

    If someone has another idea of how to move our profession forward sans a BSN dominated profession I would love to hear it...
    Last edit by VickyRN on May 10, '06
  11. by   PANurseRN1
    Quote from sushiart
    Well look at the sorry state of Nursing and tell me how a BSN hurts the fight to get better wages, etc? Are you afraid of school...the rigors of a 4yr education--God forbid Nursing takes a leap into higher standards for all aspects and not just clinicals, etc... Well...good news, you dont have to worry about it! I am talking about FUTURE requirements, not you. Unless you somehow feel this infringes upon your rights as a AS nurse...do tell me.

    I never said the skills of a AS nurse were bad or under par by any means, I think plenty of then rock and do a fantastic job...just that not having a 4 yr degree and trying to pass as professional in this day and age is a joke to most everyone in any type of power position. One position, in which nurses are not...and will never be without a better barganing chip so to say.

    Try re-reading my post and making an educated reply, rather than a gut reaction one. Thanks. And dont try to pull the high card with "I have done so and so for X yrs" therefore a AS is fine...Thats not what I am getting at.

    Answer the question: do you have any practical experience to back up what you're saying? Surely, if you want to be taken seriously, you will be packing more than what your nursing professors told you.

    BTW, "hands-on" experience is another form of education.
  12. by   PANurseRN1
    Quote from earle58
    i do understand the argument for a bsn in entry level nsg.
    i do agree that it will make us 'appear' more professional and so, will receive the respect.
    yet i've been in nsg long enough to know that such degrees, do not automatically elicit said professional behavior.
    furthermore, i've worked beside bachelor, master's, and 2 yr prepared nurses. and ea and every time, i would choose to work with the nurse who has the most experience. just face it, there are certain areas in nsg that a pile of text books can never teach. hands-on smarts is much more valuable to me than book-smarts.
    sometimes i think this educational rally can be rather pretentious.
    why do i think that if all rn's had their bsn's, there would still be the catty b.s. that is so pervasive in our field?
    i have had the privilege of working with some outstanding nurses. some were degreed, others not. it wasn't their degree that made them outstanding. if we want respect, we need to expect it. we shouldn't have to demand it. speaking on an individual basis, i have never been disrespected because i wouldn't allow it. my choice. i can either choose to work in a reprehensible environment, or not. i can either let someone talk to me like dirt, or not. a bsn didn't teach me that. self-respect did.

    leslie
    Then it would turn into "I have an MSN and you don't, neener, neener, neener..." or "BSN nurses are dragging down the profession."

    There would definitely be another issue. As Gilda said, "It's always something!"
  13. by   caroladybelle
    And you haven't looked at the clear evidence.

    Has requiring a BSN education improved nursing pay rates, conditions, benefits in the countries/states in which the BSN is required?

    The clear evidence is that it has not improved the conditions, pay rates, benefits in those areas one bit. When it was attempted here in the states (for at least 15 years or so - do not have the exact time period at hand), it failed miserably. The nurses from nations that require a Bachelor's degree are leaving those nations because of lousy working conditions.

    And as long as bathing people, handling bed pans, and dealing with vomit is part of nursing (and it is an integral part of good nursing care), it will not be a popular choice for a four year degree. The public tends to not respect people that do dirty work, no matter what degree that they hold.

    And if your value of your work is based on the degree that you hold, you have a rude awakening coming. Please remember that some of the most successful people in the world did not graduate from college.

    Bill Gates, anyone?

    It might do to research the issue, and present data that proves the point before throwing around random insults about degree levels.

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