ADN's being pushed out

Students ADN/BSN

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CrunchRN, ADN, RN

4,530 Posts

Specializes in Clinical Research, Outpt Women's Health.

Telling it like it is Avenger. Nice job.

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nursel56

7,078 Posts

Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.

I've found the same things in my delving deeply into this issue as you have, avengingspirit1. I hope people realize we are not bashing education. We had to educate ourselves to find these things in the first place. We had to question the status quo and find evidence in obscure places while fighting a PR machine that has all the levers of power politics at their fingertips and the ear of the mainstream media who for the most part still does not in any way doubt what the ANA, the AACN, and the IOM tell them.

It offends me when they are dishonest to aspiring nurses. It offends me that they waited until the truth of the new grad glut became too obvious to ignore before they acknowledged it's existence begrudgingly and in carefully couched language. I wonder if they feel a pang or two knowing there is probably an emerging notch group of "old new grads" of the 2009-2011 years who are pretty much left in the dust now because this issue never saw the light of day due to the self-interest of the nursing lobby.

It offends me when they trumpet the need for more years of education in evidence-based practice and immediately cherry-pick statistics from their cohorts in workforce research and publish them in a Press Release or a -cough- "Fact Sheet".

Whatever has happened that led to the present situation, though . . .the employer is in the driver's seat for the first time in decades and they set the rules. To be pragmatic, getting your BSN, even if it doesn't cause a substantial pay increase, cause other healthcare specialties and the public to "finally respect us as professionals" or give your post-op surgical patient in Pennsylvania a better chance of stayin' alive - getting your BSN as soon as possible is your best course of action.

avengingspirit1

242 Posts

Thank you for realizing that I am not bashing education. In fact I have always said that I think it's great if a nurse chooses to further their education. But it needs to be just that, their choice. In a still struggling economy, where nurse's hours are being cut and new jobs are still scarce, it may not be currently feasible financially or time-wise to go back to school. Many healthcare facilities have either stopped or cut back on tuition reimbursement. Also many nurses with families may not have the time to spend 20 hours a week writing papers in APA format on how nurses feel about their supervisors as well as how ancient Egyptian Art and Sanskrit may relate to patient care today.

Once they have all nurses running back for BSNs, then they'll say you need a Master's Degree to give the profession the respect it deserves, then it will be doctorate. If we allow this scheme to perpetuate, they'll have us running back to school for the rest of our lives. Univ. Of Penn Hospital has already told their BSNs that they want them to earn a Master's Degree.

In looking the curriculum of RN-BSN programs, I found they consist of courses such as: Professional Ethics, Leadership in Nursing, Research Methods and Currents Issues in Nursing. All of these courses are incorporated in some way in every accredited nursing program and to have to pay thousands of dollars to have to take them in a BSN program especially since they have nothing to do with improved patient care is a scam. Also, there is no extra hands-on or clinical training in just about all RN-BSN programs.

All nurses whether they graduate from a Diploma, Associates or Bachelor’s Program must complete the same coursework from an accredited program in order to sit for the state licensing exam. Why does it bother these so-called nursing leaders so much that many nurses graduated from Diploma and Associates programs? And why should they care as long as a nurse is skilled, competent and maintains their license by completing the state mandated continuing education units?

Again, I have no complaints about hospitals encouraging nurses to further their education. But telling experienced nurses who may also have specialty certifications that demonstrate excellence in certain areas of nursing that they must earn a BSN within 3 years under the veiled threat of termination if they don't is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. They are risking losing their most experienced nurses and reports from nurses I have spoken with of shoddy patient care are already starting to trickle down as a result of the Magnet Status and BSN pushes.

And all this being driven by academic elitists who probably haven't touched a patient since Bill Clinton was in office. During a conversation I had with a representative from a nurse’s association, it was stated that unless a nurse has a Bachelor’s degree, they are not considered a professional.

So how does that make all nurses feel who worked for years with a diploma or associates degree that they were not considered a professional in the eyes of people who claim they represent nurses. And that applies to all nurses who went on to get a BSN or MSN. During all that time they worked before they obtained those degrees, they were not considered a professional. Now you know why I use the term elitist. And I’m sure it’s not just that one state nurse’s association who feels that way.

This is the type of thinking that's driving the BSN push.

I agree with you that employers are in the driver's seat now because there is a glut of nurses. However many of the baby nurses can't wait to retire and shortly will as soon as the economy improves a little more. I also agree that the uniformed general public as well as possibly hospital administrators may take what the IOM, ANA, AACN and ANCC as gospel. That is why I contacted the media about this scam being sold to the public. A major TV station is interested but want more nurses affected by this garbage to speak up. I am in the process now of trying to find people. In this economy, nurses are afraid of being fired or blacklisted.

When that happens, public perception will change and so will nursing. And all these elitists as well as employers that are pushing this nonsense may find themselves scrambling to do some major damage control when the truth comes out.

I probably will eventual get the BSN even though I already a Bachelor's in business because I really have no intention of doing hospital work in this present climate. But it will be on my own terms, not theirs.

Nurse/56, you are wise and intelligent and it somewhat restores my faith to know there are nurses like you out there.

Susie2310

2,121 Posts

In looking the curriculum of RN-BSN programs, I found they consist of courses such as: Professional Ethics, Leadership in Nursing, Research Methods and Currents Issues in Nursing. All of these courses are incorporated in some way in every accredited nursing program and to have to pay thousands of dollars to have to take them in a BSN program especially since they have nothing to do with improved patient care is a scam. Also, there is no extra hands-on or clinical training in just about all RN-BSN programs.

I want to point out that you are generalizing in your quote above. The curriculum of the RN-BSN program I attended included courses in public health nursing; community health practicum; research; leadership; advanced health assessment; preceptorship and a nursing theory class. I also had to take four units of college statistics and a few more humanities classes. You are incorrect to say that these courses are incorporated in some way in to every accredited nursing program. The accredited ADN program I attended did not include these classes. As an aside, completing the public health nursing class made one eligible to apply to the Board of Registered Nursing for a certificate in public health nursing, a requirement for certain jobs. The extra nursing education required for bridge to BSN is not purely superficial.

While I agree with much of what you have written in your earlier posts, being in possession of both an ADN and BSN my experience of both educational programs is that the curricula of both were important to my nursing education. The ADN program provided the foundation of my nursing education, in particular very good clinical training, while the bridge to BSN rounded out my nursing education. If I had not had the time and money I would have stuck with the ADN program.

I understand the frustration of experienced nurses or any licensed nurse who is in the position of being compelled by employer preference and/or market forces to go back for their BSN. I would not like to be in that position either. But don't let's diminish the value of the better quality RN-BSN programs. Already having a bachelor's degree in another subject, even a science, is not comparable to the coursework for the RN-BSN, as stated in my first paragraph.

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nursel56

7,078 Posts

Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.

Thanks, avengingspirit1. I do hope the economy improves and job opportunities improve for all nurses. It's harder for experienced nurses to find jobs as well. Those who do best are experienced in specialized units like critical care.

We had a really interesting thread not too long ago from a nurse who served on a public-private committee in her state looking at whether the state should mandate the BSN for entry to practice. They found that in many cases there wasn't a large difference between some Associates programs and some BSN programs, as there is not one across-the-board curriculum for either degree.

Right now they are pushing for more Advanced Practice Nurses and the DNP degree which includes a committee to study present Master's programs for the purpose of evaluating what, if any differences there are in programs offered by other healthcare specialties like pharmacy and physical therapy. I wish they would instead focus their attention and efforts into looking at present ADN programs with the goal of integrating them into BSN programs. I recently saw this news item from the state of Virginia. Though it is not an all encompassing solution, it is a welcome step in that direction.

GW Will Guarantee Admission to Virginia community college Nursing Grads

CrunchRN, ADN, RN

4,530 Posts

Specializes in Clinical Research, Outpt Women's Health.

Another point. I was just reading t=in Money magazine that acquiring a more advanced degree after age 45 just does not make good financial sense. So, it should not be required unless employers are willing to pay for it. I am 50. I am not going to acquire 10k in debt at this point in my life.

avengingspirit1

242 Posts

Nurse/56: When I spoke with one of the administrators a few years ago at the ADN program I graduated from in 2004, she told me that since I have a Bachelor's in Business as well as graduate work in education earned prior to being admitted to the nursing program, it should only be a matter of taking a few upper level nursing courses in an RN-BSN Bridge program. But all the programs I researched required anywhere between 30-47 credits at a cost of between $285-$500 per credit. Most of the courses were 3 credits each with 1 or 2 two credit courses thrown in. Depending on the school, with tech fees, book costs and whatever else schools can do to pad the tuition bill, we're talking anywhere between $14,000-$30,000 for something that will serve no other purpose but to increase revenue for these schools and all those affiliated with them. Which, by the way are the very people driving the BSN push.

Like CrunchRN, I am 50 and to take on that kind of debt on top of my nursing school student loan which I am still paying off, does not make good financial sense. My brother who is an actuary even advised me not to do it. If it was truly about advancing the profession and for the good of patients, and not just about money; there would be much less expensive options for RNs, especially those with prior degrees in other areas, to obtain the almighty BSN. There would also be clinical components included to help a nurse become even a better clinician. I like the idea of possibly integrating ADN with BSN programs to make it feasible for nurses like myself to bridge the gap in a cost effective manner. But I'm not seeing any of this yet. What I'm still seeing is one big money-making racket being perpetuated and driven by elitists who stand to benefit from it.

avengingspirit1

242 Posts

Not sure about the program you attended but I checked every A.S. and Diploma program in the my area and Infomatics, Leadership, Research, and Community Nursing were all a part of every nursing program I reviewed. Statistics as well as other math courses along with the humanities, English comp., art and basic science courses were either in the program or were required as per-requisites.

I do agree that some RN-BSN programs are probably better than others but the bottom line is that they will never make one one a better nurse. The ability to think critically and optimize limited resources to provide optimal care comes from experience and being mentored by nurses with much more experience. I would ask that nurses talk with other nurses who went through a RN-BSN program and ask them if it was worth it. Every nurse I spoke to said it was a big waste of time and money.

And ADN with another degree in something such as business would have completed over and above the required coursework in a BSN program. Of course the IOM, ANA, AACN, ANCC and state nurse's associations would not consider that a common sense substitute. Number one, many of these people have lived in the fantasy work of academia for so long that common sense has become a diminishing skill for them. Also their goal is to try to force as many nurses as they can to have to run back to school. It is the biggest business racket going today. Employers however may not doubt these people due to being uniformed about nursing education. I have spoken to many nurses and teachers. I invite nurses to do the same as well as read what many nurses are saying about the BSN push; excluding those affiliated with the organizations I mentioned above as well as those affiliated with four year colleges and universities. Most nurses know it's BS. Most teachers know it's BS and soon the general public will know it's BS.

llg, PhD, RN

13,469 Posts

Specializes in Nursing Professional Development.
Not sure about the program you attended but I checked every A.S. and Diploma program in the my area and Infomatics, Leadership, Research, and Community Nursing were all a part of every nursing program I reviewed. Statistics as well as other math courses along with the humanities, English comp., art and basic science courses were either in the program or were required as per-requisites.

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Obviously, I do not know the curricula of the schools in your area ... but in my region NONE of those courses are taught in the ADN programs. Sure, the ADN students get a "taste" of each subject injected here and there within their programs ... but not full courses with real depth.

As I have said before, in my region there are schools advertising that you can get an ADN in about 15 months after graduating high school (with no pre-req's). It is schools such as those that you should be most concerned about as they are giving the better ADN schools (and graduates) a bad reputation.

MunoRN, RN

8,058 Posts

Specializes in Critical Care.
Obviously, I do not know the curricula of the schools in your area ... but in my region NONE of those courses are taught in the ADN programs. Sure, the ADN students get a "taste" of each subject injected here and there within their programs ... but not full courses with real depth.

As I have said before, in my region there are schools advertising that you can get an ADN in about 15 months after graduating high school (with no pre-req's). It is schools such as those that you should be most concerned about as they are giving the better ADN schools (and graduates) a bad reputation.

To be accredited, ADN programs must contain 90-108 quarter credit hours, or 60-72 semester credits with 30-40 prerequisite credits (which is 2 years of full time for the program and another 2 quarters to year for the pre-reqs).

http://www.nlnac.org/manuals/NLNACManual2006.pdf

Specializes in ER, progressive care.

My hospital seems to be ADN-friendly. We have quite a few nurses with their ADN but we also have quite a few nurses with their BSN.

We just hired some new nurses with their ADN.

Susie2310

2,121 Posts

Not sure about the program you attended but I checked every A.S. and Diploma program in the my area and Infomatics, Leadership, Research, and Community Nursing were all a part of every nursing program I reviewed. Statistics as well as other math courses along with the humanities, English comp., art and basic science courses were either in the program or were required as per-requisites.

I do agree that some RN-BSN programs are probably better than others but the bottom line is that they will never make one one a better nurse. The ability to think critically and optimize limited resources to provide optimal care comes from experience and being mentored by nurses with much more experience. I would ask that nurses talk with other nurses who went through a RN-BSN program and ask them if it was worth it. Every nurse I spoke to said it was a big waste of time and money.

And ADN with another degree in something such as business would have completed over and above the required coursework in a BSN program. Of course the IOM, ANA, AACN, ANCC and state nurse's associations would not consider that a common sense substitute. Number one, many of these people have lived in the fantasy work of academia for so long that common sense has become a diminishing skill for them. Also their goal is to try to force as many nurses as they can to have to run back to school. It is the biggest business racket going today. Employers however may not doubt these people due to being uniformed about nursing education. I have spoken to many nurses and teachers. I invite nurses to do the same as well as read what many nurses are saying about the BSN push; excluding those affiliated with the organizations I mentioned above as well as those affiliated with four year colleges and universities. Most nurses know it's BS. Most teachers know it's BS and soon the general public will know it's BS.

You seem to have a problem with hearing facts that do not support your point of view. It is presumptious of you to say that RN-BSN will never make one a better nurse. Maybe you close your mind to applying new knowledge, but not everyone does. I can assure you that completing RN-BSN did make me a "better nurse" and I know that others have the same experience. I am a nurse that went through an RN-BSN program, and it did make me a better nurse. I'm sorry if that isn't true for everyone. Of course one learns on the job.

Again, an ADN with a degree in business, etc., would not have completed the requirement for RN-BSN for the reasons I stated in my earlier reply to you that you ignore. I will state the reasons again: Public health nursing course that renders one eligible to apply to the State Board of Registered Nursing for a public health certificate - necessary for certain jobs. Would you like to argue that fact? Did your business course teach you public health nursing? Advanced health asssessment, above and beyond what I was taught in my accredited ADN program; nursing research course; community health practicum - did your business course or ADN provide a practicum in community health? College statistics - have you taken statistics? If not, when someone throws statistics at you how can you critically appraise what they are saying?

You are confusing your emotions about having to go back for a BSN with facts. By all means say you think RN-BSN is a waste of money. Just don't try to twist that into generalizing about the value of RN-BSN in nursing practice when you haven't even taken the RN-BSN coursework in a decent program.

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