ADN's being pushed out - page 9

I work for a large Magnet hospital. As nursing becomes more popular, and nurses not in short supply, I have noticed something ominous has being going on lately. Several of our older and very seasoned... Read More

  1. Visit  llg profile page
    2
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    Not sure about the program you attended but I checked every A.S. and Diploma program in the my area and Infomatics, Leadership, Research, and Community Nursing were all a part of every nursing program I reviewed. Statistics as well as other math courses along with the humanities, English comp., art and basic science courses were either in the program or were required as per-requisites.
    .
    Obviously, I do not know the curricula of the schools in your area ... but in my region NONE of those courses are taught in the ADN programs. Sure, the ADN students get a "taste" of each subject injected here and there within their programs ... but not full courses with real depth.

    As I have said before, in my region there are schools advertising that you can get an ADN in about 15 months after graduating high school (with no pre-req's). It is schools such as those that you should be most concerned about as they are giving the better ADN schools (and graduates) a bad reputation.
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  2. Visit  MunoRN profile page
    0
    Quote from llg
    Obviously, I do not know the curricula of the schools in your area ... but in my region NONE of those courses are taught in the ADN programs. Sure, the ADN students get a "taste" of each subject injected here and there within their programs ... but not full courses with real depth.

    As I have said before, in my region there are schools advertising that you can get an ADN in about 15 months after graduating high school (with no pre-req's). It is schools such as those that you should be most concerned about as they are giving the better ADN schools (and graduates) a bad reputation.
    To be accredited, ADN programs must contain 90-108 quarter credit hours, or 60-72 semester credits with 30-40 prerequisite credits (which is 2 years of full time for the program and another 2 quarters to year for the pre-reqs).

    http://www.nlnac.org/manuals/NLNACManual2006.pdf
    Last edit by MunoRN on Feb 27, '13 : Reason: added link
  3. Visit  turnforthenurseRN profile page
    1
    My hospital seems to be ADN-friendly. We have quite a few nurses with their ADN but we also have quite a few nurses with their BSN.

    We just hired some new nurses with their ADN.
    Szasz_is_Right likes this.
  4. Visit  Susie2310 profile page
    2
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    Not sure about the program you attended but I checked every A.S. and Diploma program in the my area and Infomatics, Leadership, Research, and Community Nursing were all a part of every nursing program I reviewed. Statistics as well as other math courses along with the humanities, English comp., art and basic science courses were either in the program or were required as per-requisites.
    I do agree that some RN-BSN programs are probably better than others but the bottom line is that they will never make one one a better nurse. The ability to think critically and optimize limited resources to provide optimal care comes from experience and being mentored by nurses with much more experience. I would ask that nurses talk with other nurses who went through a RN-BSN program and ask them if it was worth it. Every nurse I spoke to said it was a big waste of time and money.

    And ADN with another degree in something such as business would have completed over and above the required coursework in a BSN program. Of course the IOM, ANA, AACN, ANCC and state nurse's associations would not consider that a common sense substitute. Number one, many of these people have lived in the fantasy work of academia for so long that common sense has become a diminishing skill for them. Also their goal is to try to force as many nurses as they can to have to run back to school. It is the biggest business racket going today. Employers however may not doubt these people due to being uniformed about nursing education. I have spoken to many nurses and teachers. I invite nurses to do the same as well as read what many nurses are saying about the BSN push; excluding those affiliated with the organizations I mentioned above as well as those affiliated with four year colleges and universities. Most nurses know it's BS. Most teachers know it's BS and soon the general public will know it's BS.
    You seem to have a problem with hearing facts that do not support your point of view. It is presumptious of you to say that RN-BSN will never make one a better nurse. Maybe you close your mind to applying new knowledge, but not everyone does. I can assure you that completing RN-BSN did make me a "better nurse" and I know that others have the same experience. I am a nurse that went through an RN-BSN program, and it did make me a better nurse. I'm sorry if that isn't true for everyone. Of course one learns on the job.

    Again, an ADN with a degree in business, etc., would not have completed the requirement for RN-BSN for the reasons I stated in my earlier reply to you that you ignore. I will state the reasons again: Public health nursing course that renders one eligible to apply to the State Board of Registered Nursing for a public health certificate - necessary for certain jobs. Would you like to argue that fact? Did your business course teach you public health nursing? Advanced health asssessment, above and beyond what I was taught in my accredited ADN program; nursing research course; community health practicum - did your business course or ADN provide a practicum in community health? College statistics - have you taken statistics? If not, when someone throws statistics at you how can you critically appraise what they are saying?

    You are confusing your emotions about having to go back for a BSN with facts. By all means say you think RN-BSN is a waste of money. Just don't try to twist that into generalizing about the value of RN-BSN in nursing practice when you haven't even taken the RN-BSN coursework in a decent program.
    Last edit by Susie2310 on Feb 27, '13
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  5. Visit  llg profile page
    2
    Quote from MunoRN
    To be accredited, ADN programs must contain 90-108 quarter credit hours, or 60-72 semester credits with 30-40 prerequisite credits (which is 2 years of full time for the program and another 2 quarters to year for the pre-reqs).

    http://www.nlnac.org/manuals/NLNACManual2006.pdf
    I never said that the shorter programs are accredited by NLNAC. I just said they exist and that they are legal. There are lots of RN's out there practicing nursing who graduated from non-accredited programs. And there are lots of nursing students paying really big bucks to attend such "quickie" programs. As I said in my earlier post, we have several ADN programs in my region that are less than 2 years long -- at least one advertising it's program is only 15 months long, with no pre-req's. (And I have seen their brochure and talked with their faculty. They ARE that quick.)

    That's sad. And as I said, I believe the people who should be leading the fight to shut those programs down are the ADN grads who went to the better-quality programs -- because their ADN's are getting their reputations dragged down by these programs.

    Similarly, there are some atrocious BSN completion programs (many of them online, but not all) that are so concerned about being "easy and convenient" for the student that they have substantially lowered their academic standards. They want the students' money, so they make an easy program that provides little education. They give BSN programs a bad name as their graduates say they "didn't learn much of value" in their programs. (What do you expect when you chose the program because it was the easiest to complete? -- but that's a whole other issue.)

    But thanks for posting the information about the NLNAC standards. Some people may find it helpful. It gives them something to use as a standard when comparing their own local programs. Every prospective student should have that information to help them identify the bad programs out there.
    Last edit by llg on Mar 1, '13
    subee and redhead_NURSE98! like this.
  6. Visit  QualityNurseRN profile page
    1
    It has been my experience that BSN nurses as a group display more professionalism and better critical thinking than ADN nurses. However, I have also had the pleasure of working with a few ADNs and LPNs who were some of the best nurses I've ever worked with. I believe this has more to do with their personalities than their nursing programs. In general, I would say the ADN program has outlived its original purpose. It's time to close those programs down and bring nursing in line with the other health professions. There are too many paths into nursing and it is confusing to the public and our peers in medicine and therapy. Healthcare is becoming more complex every day, we need to ensure the coming ranks are equipped with the basic critical thinking skills that come with a BS. As far as pushing a seasoned and valued ADN out of their job to replace them with an inexperienced BSN- well that does seem silly and counterproductive. I do feel bad for the seasoned ADNs who are caught in the middle. It seems that a competency exam could be easily constructed as a tool for "grandfathering in" the existing ADNs without forcing them all back to school, especially for the older nurses for whom the cost-benefit would not be advantageous.
    mya612 likes this.
  7. Visit  MunoRN profile page
    3
    Quote from QualityNurseRN
    It has been my experience that BSN nurses as a group display more professionalism and better critical thinking than ADN nurses. However, I have also had the pleasure of working with a few ADNs and LPNs who were some of the best nurses I've ever worked with. I believe this has more to do with their personalities than their nursing programs. In general, I would say the ADN program has outlived its original purpose. It's time to close those programs down and bring nursing in line with the other health professions. There are too many paths into nursing and it is confusing to the public and our peers in medicine and therapy. Healthcare is becoming more complex every day, we need to ensure the coming ranks are equipped with the basic critical thinking skills that come with a BS. As far as pushing a seasoned and valued ADN out of their job to replace them with an inexperienced BSN- well that does seem silly and counterproductive. I do feel bad for the seasoned ADNs who are caught in the middle. It seems that a competency exam could be easily constructed as a tool for "grandfathering in" the existing ADNs without forcing them all back to school, especially for the older nurses for whom the cost-benefit would not be advantageous.
    I've heard this before but have yet to get an explanation of why we believe ADN nurses lack basic critical thinking skills. Many years ago, it wasn't unusual to find differences in ADN and BSN curriculum. Today, as articulation agreements between ADN and BSN programs have become common, most ADN programs follow the same curriculum as BSN programs as part of their agreement (minus about 6 credits of community health and leadership). In my area, one group of BSN and ADN programs have taken this one step further and formed a consortium, where BSN students can take their BSN classes at the Community College, sitting in the same classes as ADN students, and vice-versa. I guess I'm not clear on why 2 students in the same class, or using the same curriculum, would have such different opportunities for developing critical thinking.

    We did consider moving to BSN as entry level as you suggest, but found just closing all of the ADN programs to be unworkable because we wouldn't be able to expand BSN program enough to meet employer demand, the only practical option we found would have been to just rename the ADN programs BSN programs and extend the year's worth of pre-reqs to 2 years worth of pre-reqs and general electives, but in the end decided that was really just a change in name only.

    I do think the ADN to BSN programs are potentially very valuable since some experience in the field helps to give the ADN to BSN classes more context, as opposed to taking them prior to graduation.
    icuRNmaggie, nursel56, and llg like this.
  8. Visit  CrunchRN profile page
    2
    "It seems that a competency exam could be easily constructed as a tool for "grandfathering in" the existing ADNs without forcing them all back to school, especially for the older nurses for whom the cost-benefit would not be advantageous." Quote by QualityNurseRN


    Excuse me? I took my competency exam 20 years ago when I became a nurse. No way, no how should I be required to get a BSN or take another competency exam to remain a nurse. Grandfather ADN"s in period. Anything else is ridiculous.

    And I have been "critical thinking" for 20 years as a nurse and that particular skill is not dependent on what type of degree you have.

    My competency has been proven by my 20 year record of effective nursing.

    If I could skoff in print I would be doing it now.

    Szasz_is_Right and nursel56 like this.
  9. Visit  LadyFree28 profile page
    0
    Quote from MunoRN

    I've heard this before but have yet to get an explanation of why we believe ADN nurses lack basic critical thinking skills. Many years ago, it wasn't unusual to find differences in ADN and BSN curriculum. Today, as articulation agreements between ADN and BSN programs have become common, most ADN programs follow the same curriculum as BSN programs as part of their agreement (minus about 6 credits of community health and leadership). In my area, one group of BSN and ADN programs have taken this one step further and formed a consortium, where BSN students can take their BSN classes at the Community College, sitting in the same classes as ADN students, and vice-versa. I guess I'm not clear on why 2 students in the same class, or using the same curriculum, would have such different opportunities for developing critical thinking.

    We did consider moving to BSN as entry level as you suggest, but found just closing all of the ADN programs to be unworkable because we wouldn't be able to expand BSN program enough to meet employer demand, the only practical option we found would have been to just rename the ADN programs BSN programs and extend the year's worth of pre-reqs to 2 years worth of pre-reqs and general electives, but in the end decided that was really just a change in name only.

    I do think the ADN to BSN programs are potentially very valuable since some experience in the field helps to give the ADN to BSN classes more context, as opposed to taking them prior to graduation.
    ^ Agreed MunroRN.

    In my area, most ADN programs have consorted with BSN programs, and this model that you described is pretty spot on in perspective.

    For what it should be worth, ADNs with 10+ experience should be grandfathered, or at the most become board-certified in their specialty, and that should be the end of the discussion...for organizations that have a clinical ladder model, it will be satisfied. ADNs need to have the support of the organization and at least have the BSN in 10 option, not an all or nothing approach. The skill mix on our profession is so valuable in shaping and continuing exceptional nursing practice.
  10. Visit  lumbarpain profile page
    0
    Same here, I am a Diploma RN.....havent been able to find a JOB due to this.....Losing hope down the line and I would love to quit Nursing altogether....all the stress and baloney isnt worth my mental or physical health being I am a seasoned Nurse.
  11. Visit  avengingspirit1 profile page
    9
    Had Stat., quantitative analysis, calculus and other high level math courses over and above that in other RN-BSN Program. Also community & public health clinical rotations well as surgery and psych. There is nothing an RN-BSN program would give me that I don't already have; except of course $20,000 of debt. You seem to have a hard time believing what just about everyone else knows is a reality. That higher education is a business. And just like any other business they say it is in one's best interest necessity to purchase their products and services.

    As I've always said, I think it's great if a nurse chooses to further their education. But for an accomplished nurse with years of experience who has proven the ability to acquire knowledge in other ways besides spending another $20,000-$30,000 at Joe's University to be forced to go back to school is stupid, narrow-minded and probably one of the best ways to lose our most experienced nurses.

    I'm sure there are some RN-BSN programs out there that may give nurses without a degree in another area something they could use in the field. But they are few and far in between. I have to go by what nurses have said who have already went through it: That it was a big waste of time and money. When there was talk of making a Bachelor's Degree 3 years instead of 4, the colleges and universities screamed bloody murder because of all the money they would lose. Now it's being talked about again. They're also talking about making a law degree two years instead of three.

    The so-called nursing leaders ( I say that because I don't consider them my leaders) are trying pushing this higher education garbage at a time when people can't afford it and the student loan debt has reached over 1 trillion dollars with enormous default rates, topping that of credit card debt. It just shows you how out of touch nursing elitists are. What they're trying to do is kind of sleazy. And with a news station now possibly interested, I'm going try to make it kind of over.
    HazelLPN, mya612, Yuppers21, and 6 others like this.
  12. Visit  Susie2310 profile page
    2
    avengingspirit1, if you truly believe you have fulfilled all the coursework for an RN-BSN, have you contacted a university/nursing program etc. to ask how someone in your position should proceed? If you have done so, did the nursing program concede that you had completed all the coursework for an RN-BSN? What was their response? If you weren't happy with the nursing program's response did you take your concerns to the highest levels of university administration?
    Nurse_Diane and monkeybug like this.
  13. Visit  PinkNBlue profile page
    4
    Quote from Orca
    I'm not against education. What I am against is elitism in nursing, in which some nurses have sought to split the profession into tiers with themselves at the top. We all passed the same board exam, so there must be something to this supposedly inferior education that I have. When I went to clinicals, floor staff expressed relief when they saw that I wasn't from a BSN program because I would be more self sufficient. We were more accomplished clinically, they were more accomplished in terms of nursing concepts.

    Despite my lack of the magical three letters, I have made it into upper management. However, should I ever be displaced, the story might be different.

    In my opinion, you don't strengthen a profession by excluding most of the people in it.

    Exactly.

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