partial birth abortion - page 4

THE OUTCOME of what is almost certain to be a legal battle fought all the way to Supreme Court will hinge on whether the justices accept the findings of Congress that the procedure is never medically... Read More

  1. by   ShandyLynnRN
    I am very glad that everyone pro-life or pro-choice, feel that this is barbaric. Yes, I also agree with the above post, but I don't really want to get into that debate either.

    My question is, does anyone know of the circumstances behind why this procedure is done? I know they say it is to save the life of the mother, but does anyone have examples of what was wrong with the mother that this needed to be done?

    I am just baffled, as I cannot think of ONE THING that would necessetate (sp?) this procedure!
  2. by   On-z-go-nurse
    I always get so sad when I read pro-choice vs por life arguments.First of all I agree with the post that stated that we should be equally appalled at abortion done at any stage. That said, I want to point out that I am PRO-CHOICE, sort of.
    I believe a women has a choice of using the pill, condoms, depo-provera, ect, deciding if and when she wants to have sex and with whom or not. Many choices here. If she is at the point of choosing an abortion, it is becuase she didnt make any choices or not the right ones anyway. There are adobtion lines miles long of couples who would love that baby. King Solomon pointed out that it is a REAL mother who would rather give up her baby to another that to see it dead. I think that wisdom still stands. Please dont throw flames here...JMHO
  3. by   sixes
    I also agree with the above posts. what could be the danger to the mother that this would even be considered. And if she is in so much danger why is a C-section not done??? Let God decide if the child is viable. And if the child is deformed or has some disorder let God decide its fate. If the child is simply not wanted there is adoption.
    I am the mother of 5 teenage boys. 2 of them are naturally mine,3 we are legal guardians for. Daniel 18 is autistic and couldn't be cared for by his natural mother. When his grandmother passed away suddenly we took over his care. He is wonderful, funny and makes my life whole. Tony 14 and willy12 also could not be cared for by there natural father. Tony is also developmentally challenged.
    We are a busy happy family. Am I stressed somedays. Of course.
    But I wouldn't change my life for anything in this world. If we could we would take in every unwanted challenged child.
    Yes I am still pro choice I just don't understand how anyone besides perhaps a rape victim could abort after seeing the tapes of what will happen to there unborn child.
    Are people still shown these tapes before they abort? If not they should be
  4. by   GiantHeart21
    I live in CA and I have a friend that recently had an abortion...... She brought home the informational packet and I was reading, as I was really interested in what was going on at that clinic. I found out that this clinic (a big one in very big city) performs ALL elective abortions where the baby is not thought to have any abnormalities or birth defects and the mother was in no danger. The packet explained thinbs in very very gentle terms that made these things sound very humane. First trimester aboortions were done using the traditional method using the canula and vacume and dilation if needed. Second trimester abortions were done using the D&E model as wel as using digoxin to stop the baby's heart BUT in the packet it said that this medicine (digoxin) would be injected into the amniotic sac (not the heart) and that this medicine would cause fetal demise SO THAT THE BABY WOULD NOT FEEL ANYTHING!!!! Well no shat the baby is dead.... Anyways after the second trimester the offered what the called the partial birth D&X??? Later my friend found out that this was just what you are describing soooooo it does still happen.... and I guess the rational is that as long as the baby's head is still in the mother it is not murder. Just wanted to add my experience. Thanks for listening guys
  5. by   Jo Dirt
    I heard this obstetrician on the radio say in his 30+ yrs of practice he has never once seen a situation for a medically necessary partial birth abortion.

    I also heard it described what happens during this disgusting procedure.
    What made me the sickest is when they desribed the doctor (I hate to even give them the dignity of being called doctor) pushes the instrument through the skull the baby's arms and legs which are moving jerk outward in a sudden motion (Moro Reflex) and then go limp.

    I honestly believe I could harm any monster I saw doing this.

    Oh, there is also such a thing as post-birth abortions.
    Last edit by Jo Dirt on Aug 22, '07
  6. by   CEG
    I am pro-life but try to be pro-choice, because I have never been in a situation where I have had to choose.

    This makes me sick. Aside from any other arguments, if I found out my baby had a terrible anomaly incompatible with life, the last thing I would want is for their only sensation in life to be that of scissors piercing their skull and the excrutiating pain it must cause. I cannot imagine what kind of person it would take to be able to perform this. I can easily see how a woman could be fooled by that provvider into thinking it is a good choice though, it happens everyday with many procedures.
  7. by   KellNY
    Partial birth abortions (or more medically accurate-an intact D&X) do happen, and the MAJORITY of those performed are on non-viable or dead feti.

    One of the most common reasons is hydrocephaly with or without anencephaly. I'm not talking about the hydrocephaly where the girl goes on to be a happy 12 year old--I'm talking about an extremely malformed fetus, sometimes with a head so large the primip mother is 28 weeks and looks closer to 38. The head can reasonably be over 250% or larger than a "normal" head. And as most of us OB nurses know, hydro or anencephaly are not usually detected until the 2nd trimester or later.

    Think of babies like this (warning-may be disturbing)http://www.pjms.com.pk/issues/janmar...grotesques.GIF

    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH...1022/fg1.h.jpg


    In the whopping 2 times that I know of that this has been done in my hospital (we do D&Es very frequently) the doctor injected digoxin into the amniotic sac--yes they do that, it's not always a shot into the heart!--first so that the baby would not feel any pain. In one, which I assisted in, they removed over 1250mLs of fluid (no, not 125mL--1250, as in over a liter!) from the cranial cavity...there was no sucking out of brains.

    This site has some excellent, generally unbiased information, complete with sorces. Note that the #1 reason the procedure is performed is an IUFD, read: the "baby" is already dead.

    The quotes on frequency of the procedure are often over inflated (as a shock and awe form of propaganda) being based solely on NJ's numbers.

    Why is that flawed? Because NJ was victim to a very unethical (and later to be rightfully determined, criminal) doctor who performed the procedure at an extremely alarming rate, lied to his patients, and was basically in it for the money. He was later arrested, sued, and had his license revoked. The jerk had been lying to patients about the procedure itself, the age of the fetus, the risks, etc. Anyway, for that year or two that he violated these women and babies, the numbers were super high, and many prolife proponents have used this one figure to bump up the numbers.

    One reason some women "wait so long" to make a choice is because some states require parental or spousal consent or notification. In cases of abuse, this may not be the best thing for the woman, who often times must save up not only hundreds of dollars for the procedure, but hundreds more to travel out of state. Now, this is NOT an excuse for having a D&X, and any doctor performing a D&X for this reason alone is violating law and ethics.

    In order to perform a D&X a doctor must have another doctor (who is not legally or financially connected to him/her) concur that it is medically necessary, except in the case of an already present IUFD.

    And aside from that, I can assure you that there is no glut of women lined up waiting to abort their healthy 30, 32, 34 week fetus. i've never known a woman who didn't agonize over the choice at any stage of pregnancy, or one who didn't want to end the pregnancy as soon as possible after making the choice.

    D&Xs account for around 0.2% of all abortions performed, and this number INCLUDES procedures done on already dead babies, as well as those incompatible with life.

    on-z-go, That line of thinking regarding choice would assume that condoms and oral contraceptives and other BC methods always work. It also assumes that a sex is always consentual. This line of thinking is flawed. I can't tell you how many TOPs we've seen on women with IUDs in place. Or women who were taking the pill and had an Oops baby. I myself took emergency contraception when my partner's condom broke (read: used two methods-barrier and hormonal) and obviously neither worked because I'm in the process of aborting. Glad I had that extra choice.

    But that is neither here nor there, as we're discussing a D&X specifically.
    Last edit by KellNY on Aug 24, '07
  8. by   Jo Dirt
    You can sugar coat anything to not sound so bad but talk is cheap and facts are facts and I'm sure for every so-called therapeutic partial-birth abortion you have plenty of others done out of convenience. It can be called a fetus or bundle of tissue but if it's not a baby you're not pregnant (I'm speaking to no one in particular here).
    I'm pro-choice not because I believe in a woman's "right" specifically I'm just libertarian. I can't control others' actions. You will always have the arguments and proponents have said abortion should be safe, legal and rare--I don't know why it should be rare if there is nothing wrong with it, though.
    If there is nothing wrong with partial-birth abortions there is nothing wrong with post-birth abortions, either.
  9. by   fergus51
    Quote from motorcycle mama
    If there is nothing wrong with partial-birth abortions there is nothing wrong with post-birth abortions, either.
    If you've ever worked high risk L&D, you would know why they are the best choice in some rare circumstances such as those the previous post mentioned. Those are done on babies we would let die after birth anyways. Perhaps you'd call that a post birth abortion. Some of us call it letting nature take its course and feel it's the most compassionate thing to do sometimes. I'll leave this thread at that. This procedure is such a red herring anyways. They banned it, but late term abortions in general are not banned so it makes little difference.
  10. by   Jo Dirt
    Quote from fergus51
    If you've ever worked high risk L&D, you would know why they are the best choice in some rare circumstances such as those the previous post mentioned. Those are done on babies we would let die after birth anyways. Perhaps you'd call that a post birth abortion. Some of us call it letting nature take its course and feel it's the most compassionate thing to do sometimes. I'll leave this thread at that. This procedure is such a red herring anyways. They banned it, but late term abortions in general are not banned so it makes little difference.
    People just have to decide what their equivalent of nature taking its course is and what their conscience will let them live with. Is the natural way always best? Do we allow a sick baby to be born and nurse it as best as we know how or pull out the ol' scissors? Had a teacher in school who was also an OB nurse tell the class she assisted to deliver a weak premature baby. It was going to die. After she delivered (it was a baby girl) the fetus (as some feel more comfortable referring it to) was attempting to breathe. There happened to be a pan filled with sterile water closeby and the doctor nonchalantly stuck the baby er, fetus in it face down. This nurse told us it was the only time she assaulted a doctor (follwed him out in the hall, grabbed him by the shirt, slammed him back against the wall -yes, she is a big woman- and told him NEVER do a thing like that again.) Some will say it was more merciful to do that than let it suffocate longer...but is it? Is that nature taking its course? My heart would tell me no. Forget emotions, you can't fail when you listen to what your heart tells you. The baby might suffer and die anyway, but my instincts would tell me to cuddle and hold that baby and make the attempt even if it is a feeble one to make that baby more comfortable.

    I've tried and tried to look at the other side of partial-birth and late-term abortion but my conscience gets in the way every time.

    As objective as I try to be with all things this is an area where it is extremely hard to do. Yet, I have tried to look at things from the other side because I've found it helps me to understand the opposite side's point of view. From this I have concluded that I am against abortion--in general. I tried to think how I would feel if I became pregnant because of forced intercourse. I know the sickening feeling of having been through it but I don't know how it would feel to be pregnant because of it, so I don't feel at liberty to have an opinion on that aspect of it because the world is not black and white. I can say, though, I still can't justify in my mind why anyone could participate in PBA's and be okay with it.
    Last edit by Jo Dirt on Aug 24, '07 : Reason: Was going to add something but nevermind...
  11. by   SmilingBluEyes
    I do not see sugar-coating in that post above yours Motorcycle, but a lot of factual content. It's easy to get emotional about such issues like abortion, either pro or con. It's more of a challenge to try and see all the sides that are involved in such hot issues, however.

    That is all I will say on this subject.
  12. by   Jo Dirt
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    I do not see sugar-coating in that post above yours Motorcycle, but a lot of factual content. It's easy to get emotional about such issues like abortion, either pro or con. It's more of a challenge to try and see all the sides that are involved in such hot issues, however.

    That is all I will say on this subject.
    Wasn't referring to that post in particular.

    Yes, it's draining trying to look at these issues from all sides.

    I'm tired.

    Oh, wait, that was (one of) the posts I was referring to. I didn't really have an issue with anything in that post except the fetus vs. baby deal.
    Last edit by Jo Dirt on Aug 24, '07
  13. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from motorcycle mama
    People just have to decide what their equivalent of nature taking its course is and what their conscience will let them live with. Is the natural way always best? Do we allow a sick baby to be born and nurse it as best as we know how or pull out the ol' scissors? Had a teacher in school who was also an OB nurse tell the class she assisted to deliver a weak premature baby. It was going to die. After she delivered (it was a baby girl) the fetus (as some feel more comfortable referring it to) was attempting to breathe. There happened to be a pan filled with sterile water closeby and the doctor nonchalantly stuck the baby er, fetus in it face down. This nurse told us it was the only time she assaulted a doctor (follwed him out in the hall, grabbed him by the shirt, slammed him back against the wall -yes, she is a big woman- and told him NEVER do a thing like that again.) Some will say it was more merciful to do that than let it suffocate longer...but is it? Is that nature taking its course? My heart would tell me no. Forget emotions, you can't fail when you listen to what your heart tells you. The baby might suffer and die anyway, but my instincts would tell me to cuddle and hold that baby and make the attempt even if it is a feeble one to make that baby more comfortable.

    I've tried and tried to look at the other side of partial-birth and late-term abortion but my conscience gets in the way every time.

    As objective as I try to be with all things this is an area where it is extremely hard to do. Yet, I have tried to look at things from the other side because I've found it helps me to understand the opposite side's point of view. From this I have concluded that I am against abortion--in general. I tried to think how I would feel if I became pregnant because of forced intercourse. I know the sickening feeling of having been through it but I don't know how it would feel to be pregnant because of it, so I don't feel at liberty to have an opinion on that aspect of it because the world is not black and white. I can say, though, I still can't justify in my mind why anyone could participate in PBA's and be okay with it.
    I think it is normal to have trouble with this issue.

    We have friends who knew their baby had birth defects incompatible with life and chose to continue the pregnancy. They got to hold their child as she died and it was the right thing to do for them. I would do the same thing.

    I also know a woman who was raped, got pregnant, gave the baby away to be adopted. This baby is now an adult with her own children and has recently met her bio-mom. And told her thank you.

    I'm sure there are lots of stories on the opposite side too.

    steph

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