Is English required to be an RN?

vemiliob · Jul 24, 2004

It is so funny, one can believe that proper language in nursing (writing and speaking) is just an endemic problem however I can assure you that this much more universal than one could expect.

We have a large group of nurses coming from bordering countries, mostly from Chile and Bolivia, nevertheless I guess the write and speak Spanish better than we do. The fact here is that we are considered almost illiterate, famous for our grammatical errors and horrors. A famous phrase from our medical director is that nurses are just "Cetaceous" (Specially related to the pejorative qualifying of "Whales").

Now I said it is funny because I have two reasons to be a member of this board. The main one is just to exercise my English-writing and the second one is because we don't have a local board where to discuss our daily troubles, because Argentinean nurses suffer from a chronic decease called "lack of unity".

To end I will say that I would be lost without a text processor not only in English but in Spanish too, although I cannot be considered an illiterate person. From my sixth's ahead I don"t remember a period of my life without studying something.

leslie :-D · Jul 25, 2004

Now I said it is funny because I have two reasons to be a member of this board. The main one is just to exercise my English-writing and the second one is because we don't have a local board where to discuss our daily troubles, because Argentinean nurses suffer from a chronic decease called "lack of unity".

U.S. nurses also suffer from this "lack of unity"...a chronic disease here, with no cure in sight. wishing you well......

leslie

vemiliob · Jul 26, 2004

:balloons: Come on, don't be so critical!

You did quite well in past times otherwise you wouldn't get the rights you were able to reach.

AR Nurses run hundred years behind you. We are still second class workers. I wish you all well too.

Emilio

WatERkoOL · Jul 28, 2004

I have noticed from day one in here that many RNs use some of the poorest English and grammar I have ever seen. I am sure that we were required to take English as a requirement to graduate from nursing school. Did we leave it in the classroom, or is it that it was never really learned? I see from the charts I read at work that the case is the same in actual practice. I see so much chatroomease that it makes me sick to read some of the postings in here. Are we professionals that want to sound the part or simply chatroom fools? I for one at least try to sound and act professional. As RNs we have a reputation to be knowledgable and professional. Where are you?

if ur here to show off ur perfect Eng/grammar then u should be an Eng teacher? dont watse ur time here n embarrass the others or stop complaining. so childish n annoying to post this board

danu3 · Jul 28, 2004

Exuse my bad grammar that will follow.

Very few of us use perfect English all the time. It depends on the environment. We speak differently under different circumstances. Tape yourself for a week and see how grammatical you are. We write differently under different circumstances. As for this board, it has a culture of its own. It is a culture where being a little "laid back" is more valued than being "formal". It is a culture where as long as I can figure out what you are trying to say, then that is fine.

I guess the person who complain is having a "culture shock".

As what happens in the health field, I do not think having perfect grammar is a requirement. But having communication between staff without misunderstand is important as we are dealing with life and death. Having the ability to figure out what the other side is trying to say either verbally or written is a skill that may be most important. What good is it if I have perfect grammar and you misunderstand me? I mean just take a look at lawyer's language, it is perfectly grammatical and sounding professional. But most of us have no idea what it is trying to say. I mean which one do you prefer? "Have an orange" or " I, Jane Doe of 2446 Thaddeus Drive in Monta Vist, California, here give you this said orange with 100% peel, juice, and pulp to you. I also grant you the right to peel, to juice, to eat the said orange in whole or in part, or to give part of or the full organge to anyone or anything, with or without breath, as you deemed dsireable." Ok, I am not a lawyer, but you get the idea.

For example, one could use a very professional nursing language "Please void into this specimen container." This is highly professional language and it gives an air of professionalism but the patient might not have any idea what you are talking about (this happened to my mom, or should I say mother, once). Maybe better say something not so professional like "Pee" and pointing to the bottle.

I used to work in the computer field for an international company. One of the things I do is a design review moderator. One thing I do is to see who are the reviewers. If everyone is from a non-English speaking foriegn country, we would let the grammar slide in the documentation as long as everyone can understand what the author is trying to communicate. However, if there is someone who is a native born English speaker AND s/he gets upset with bad grammar, we will have the document reviewed for grammar first. Usually we get the person who is easily upset with bad grammar to do a prereview of the grammar (hey, they ask for it).

Back in my old school days, I remember we have people in the English department and the people in the linguistic department not liking each other very much. The reason is a different view of language. People in the English department tends to be "prescriptive", that is, there is a right way and a wrong way of doing things. People in the linguistics department has a "descriptive" way of looking at language, that is - bad grammar? No such thing. Let's see what is the grammar of "bad grammar" is. So they ended up studying things like Black English to the grammar of swearing to even baby grammar (I had a linguistic teacher who just have a baby and she was trying to figure out the grammar of her baby). For example, a linguist might look at the communication on this board and actually probably can figure out some grammar rules of our "bad grammar".

To put on the other hat, as a consumer of healthcare (all of us are at one time or another), bad grammar does not bother me in a healthcare setting. What bothers me is bad communication between staff. Guess that is just a bias I have since I worked in an international setting for so long, we get pretty pragmatic, as long as we understanding each other, that is fine.

-Dan

WatERkoOL · Jul 28, 2004

wow i love ur opinions Dan

Pedusc · Jul 28, 2004

Fellow nurses and nurses-to-be, it is critically important that we embrace professionalism at all times, even when we think our conversations are casual and informal, and requires no allegiance to conventional use of the English language. And for those of you critical of foreign doctors and how they spell or write, it is imperative to realize that not all foreign doctors fall into this category, and generalizing can be stereotypical and dangerous. I am a foreigner myself and I know many speakers of English as a second language who would do better than most Americans in both written and spoken English-any day, any time. Be cautious in your choice of words to avoid sounding stereotipical of foreign doctos, most of whom would not be where they are if they are unqualified. Laughing at them does not help the matter either.

Pedus C. E, RN, BSN, BA

Havin' A Party!, ASN, RN · Jul 28, 2004

... What bothers me is bad communication...

Dan -- Don't think anyone was proposing professional communication without communication.

Communication is where the rubber meets the road, but this can be accomplished in a manner that enhances the nurse, uplifts our industry, and benefits the patient.

Rep · Jul 28, 2004

Fellow nurses and nurses-to-be, it is critically important that we embrace professionalism at all times, even when we think our conversations are casual and informal, and requires no allegiance to conventional use of the English language. And for those of you critical of foreign doctors and how they spell or write, it is imperative to realize that not all foreign doctors fall into this category, and generalizing can be stereotypical and dangerous. I am a foreigner myself and I know many speakers of English as a second language who would do better than most Americans in both written and spoken English-any day, any time. Be cautious in your choice of words to avoid sounding stereotipical of foreign doctos, most of whom would not be where they are if they are unqualified. Laughing at them does not help the matter either.
Pedus C. E, RN, BSN, BA

I agree with you. There is no such thing as an illiterate foreign doctors or foreign nurses for that matter.

nerdse, MSN · Jul 29, 2004

Folks, I and other military spouses who lived in foreign countries WERE NOT PERMITTED TO BE A NURSE THERE UNLESS COMPLETELY FLUENT IN THAT COUNTRY'S NATIVE LANGUAGE! :rolleyes: Caps intentional for emphasis. Literacy tests in the country's language were administered and you could not work if you didn't pass. Then there were all the immigration hoops - for example, until they can't find one single nurse in all their affiliated countries that will take that position, you can't work there, and you have to go to classes - mostly at your own expense - in order to be permitted to take the job if you are accepted - contingent on your passing the courses and their version of nursing boards. All that for much less than what a nurse makes in the US (ever get the feeling that the lower health costs overseas are a result of underpaying nurses?). :angryfire

Anyway, we certainly don't do the same here. I have to teach foreign nurses to use the computer system. Often they can't read or speak English well enough to do so, plus they can't even type and our system is not mouse or light pen driven. They feel they have a total right to complain, by the way, that they have to type and they get insulted if you try to show them how English is constructed and spoken. :nono: There is only one foreign group that I have had that do not get insulted but welcome the additional help. It is no wonder we have no trouble getting foreign nurses to come to the US - and the same goes for the doctors.

Then there's the physicians - I had one years ago whose writing was illegible and whose accent was so bad that even I couldn't understand it (and believe me, that's bad; I can figure out just about any accent). I had to ask him to come down and clarify in writing. Well, although he couldn't seem to write a legible order in English or give an understandable verbal correction, he DID speak very clearly at one point when he decided to make a scene - everything was incomprehensible until the end when he called me a G-dd____ed fat, stupid, lazy b___h in front of a hallway full of patients & visitors :angryfire - at which point I turned to him and said very sweetly, "Pardon me, doctor, but could you repeat that? I can't understand your accent!" The entire hallway erupted into laughter & he retreated quickly down the stairs, carrying on the entire time. :rotfl: BTW my incident report on his unprofessional behavior was ripped up & never saw the light of day in the medical staff offices. I don't work there anymore nor would I.

I don't mind multiculturalism - in fact, I welcome it - BUT since I was expected to adapt to the culture of my host country as a military family member stationed overseas, I expect the same courtesy from them when they're in my country! I think it's time we demand of foreign workers in ALL fields, but esp. in medicine & nursing, the same thing THEY demand of Americans living or working overseas. :rolleyes:

leslie :-D · Jul 29, 2004

there are some who will always feel that sense of entitlement.

lindarn · Jul 29, 2004

Folks, I and other military spouses who lived in foreign countries WERE NOT PERMITTED TO BE A NURSE THERE UNLESS COMPLETELY FLUENT IN THAT COUNTRY'S NATIVE LANGUAGE! Caps intentional for emphasis. Literacy tests in the country's language were administered and you could not work if you didn't pass. Then there were all the immigration hoops - for example, until they can't find one single nurse in all their affiliated countries that will take that position, you can't work there, and you have to go to classes - mostly at your own expense - in order to be permitted to take the job if you are accepted - contingent on your passing the courses and their version of nursing boards. All that for much less than what a nurse makes in the US (ever get the feeling that the lower health costs overseas are a result of underpaying nurses?). :angryfire
Anyway, we certainly don't do the same here. I have to teach foreign nurses to use the computer system. Often they can't read or speak English well enough to do so, plus they can't even type and our system is not mouse or light pen driven. They feel they have a total right to complain, by the way, that they have to type and they get insulted if you try to show them how English is constructed and spoken. There is only one foreign group that I have had that do not get insulted but welcome the additional help. It is no wonder we have no trouble getting foreign nurses to come to the US - and the same goes for the doctors.
Then there's the physicians - I had one years ago whose writing was illegible and whose accent was so bad that even I couldn't understand it (and believe me, that's bad; I can figure out just about any accent). I had to ask him to come down and clarify in writing. Well, although he couldn't seem to write a legible order in English or give an understandable verbal correction, he DID speak very clearly at one point when he decided to make a scene - everything was incomprehensible until the end when he called me a G-dd____ed fat, stupid, lazy b___h in front of a hallway full of patients & visitors :angryfire - at which point I turned to him and said very sweetly, "Pardon me, doctor, but could you repeat that? I can't understand your accent!" The entire hallway erupted into laughter & he retreated quickly down the stairs, carrying on the entire time. :rotfl: BTW my incident report on his unprofessional behavior was ripped up & never saw the light of day in the medical staff offices. I don't work there anymore nor would I.
I don't mind multiculturalism - in fact, I welcome it - BUT since I was expected to adapt to the culture of my host country as a military family member stationed overseas, I expect the same courtesy from them when they're in my country! I think it's time we demand of foreign workers in ALL fields, but esp. in medicine & nursing, the same thing THEY demand of Americans living or working overseas.

I couldn't agree more. We are far too lenient, and bend over backwards for immigrants, and foreign workers. THIS IS OUR COUNTRY!!! WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO RUN IT AS WE SEE FIT, FOR OUR CONVENIENCE, NOT FOREIGN COUNTRIES AND THEIR PEOPLE. WE SHOULD ENACT LAWS TO BENEFITS AMERICANS, NOT FOREIGNERS!

As for the incident report that you wrote regarding this doctor, I stand by my assertion that, and I don't care what your Risk Management people say,

MAKE A COPY OF ALL OF THE INCIDENT REPORTS THAT YOU WRITE!! They WILL disapear when it is convenient for the hospital, or their favorites, ie, doctors. That will be your only proof. Take care of yourself. And get your own malpractice insurance policy.

Linda, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington