Is Health Care a Right?

kmchugh · Feb 20, 2003

After reading Susy's post, I went back and re-read my posts, and realized that she was right. I was too harsh. So, JMP, for the tone of my last post, I sincerely apologise.

I do not, however, retract what I was trying to say. It may suprise you to learn, JMP, that there are Americans who don't think Canadian health care is "all that." I can use my own case as an example. I have a severely damaged right knee, that needs replacement. At 43 years old, I'm just too young to have that procedure done if I can possibly put it off. So, under the US system (which admittedly has flaws), I am waiting until the pain gets so bad that I can't stand it. Right now, with anti-inflammatories, I am doing quite well. When it gets to the point that anti-inflammatories aren't helping, I'll go see Dr McQueen, a leading joint replacement specialist in the midwest, who will replace my knee. I'll probably be on the surgery schedule about 4-6 weeks after I initially see McQueen.

The last time I heard anything about it, the wait in Canada for a knee replacement could be up to two years. After all, no one could reasonably call a knee replacement "emergent surgery." If I lived under such a system, I'd have to try to guess when I will be two years out from being in such bad pain I can no longer stand it. Well, of course I can't begin to guess when that will be, since I don't know how it will feel today. To be safe, I'd have to go ahead and put myself on the list NOW, and end up with a joint replacement at 45 years old. Ask any orthopod. Knee replacement surgery at 45 should only be undertaken in the case of terrible, unrelenting pain. Of course, my other option is to wait until the pain is so bad I can't stand it, then put up with that pain for two years, probably having to use oral narcotics, waiting for surgery. See my problem?

I'm tired of others assuming that because I don't necessarily think some other country's health care plan is the best for the US, I must be some sick, greedy bast****, or I must own stock in the insurance industry (is that redundant?). I've said, there are problems with our system, but replacing it with another system with equal or greater flaws just isn't the answer either.

I'm also sick of people from other countries telling the US to "butt out of their business" but have no problem condemning the US for how we do things here. "You don't do it like we do, you terrible people!" There is a horrendous dichotomy there. But that's another thread.

So, for the tone of my message, JMP, I apologise. It was needlessly, thoughtlessly harsh. But I stand by the content.

Kevin McHugh

semstr · Feb 20, 2003

I'm also sick of people from other countries telling the US to "butt out of their business" but have no problem condemning the US for how we do things here. "You don't do it like we do, you terrible people!" There is a horrendous dichotomy there. But that's another thread.

Kevin McHugh [/b]

Kevin you are right about that.

But that is what a lot of other countries think about the USA.

Whatever we (the small countries of this world) do, big brother (aka USA) knows it better. At least "we" get that feeling sometimes.

Now, about health issues and people from other countries knowing it "better", could it be that tv and other media play a big role here too?

Almost all the big medical-tv-shows (and the legal and emergency ones too) shown here on our tv, come from the USA.

That might be the reason, "we" think to know all about your healthsystem.

Q. · Feb 20, 2003

Thanks Kevin.

Although, my nice and soft mood has worn off quickly. My ugly head will be rearing itself in another thread TBA.

probable cause · Feb 20, 2003

If I'm not mistaken, you can add Indians to the list of recipients of free health care.

fergus51 · Feb 20, 2003

Kevin,

My dad here got a knee replaced in less than 4 months (from the time the GP referred him to an ortho). Not that this really adds anything to the conversation, but you actually wouldn't have to wait 2 years if you are in your forties because people on workers comp. get to go to the head of the line along with police and armed forces. My dad was already retired when he got his and was annoyed he couldn't jump to the head. Some like this system, others argue that it doesn't provide the equality that it should, but the exceptions are in the Canada Health Act so they are there to stay.

researchrabbit · Feb 20, 2003

Here in the US, my best friend needed a hip replacement at age 49. The insurance company wouldn't OK it until she was walking so slowly the old ladies at the nursing home were passing her with their walkers (no joke). It took her almost two years to get the insurance company to approve it, and each day she was getting worse and worse and in more and more pain.

JMP · Feb 20, 2003

Kevin

I worked on a surgical floor before I became an ICU nurse and I have never nursed anyone who needed surgery and had to wait any long and distressing time. Perhaps these situations exsist, and if the surgery is not deemed life saving , perhaps it happens more than it should. Certainly now in the ICU, NO ONE waits for anything, I can swear to that. However, given the alternatives, I would still rather have EVERYONE covered with health care than only a percentage of the population.

As far as you being senstive about the fact that the Canadian's might have one thing better than the US, well, please lets keep it in perspective. I am not saying your country is not great, but like any other system it has problems and I see your health care system is a very large and overwhelming problem....for many people.

As for the argument about having to give up something..... we have been over and over that and I think I made my point a few times.

As for your apology, I really and sincerley appreciated it. It is obvious to me from these ongoing debates that your feelings are heart felt and that your feelings are also very strong and I also can tell you care a great deal about your country.

Since we are neighbours, I hope your system can improve to the point that all Americans can have ACCESS to health care. That is the only point I have been trying to make all along.

Gromit · Mar 10, 2003

Originally posted by JMP
The fact that we disagree is obvious, the fact that we come from different places where different values are held is also obvious. THe fact that we both have our minds made up, at least I know I do, that my way ( Canadian Health care system) is the better way, is also obvious. As I also stated earlier .....I live a good life, have a good income, and STILL my fellow citizens are covered for ANY medical need. It is something, I feel, to be proud of.

I wish you luck. I wish you continued medical coverage.

Always willing to agree to disagree, even with you Kevin.

Hmm. and the world (Canadians included) call US arrogant!

Hey all. Glad to see things are still pretty much the same. Neglected my studies and came close to failing Psych, so I had to kick back and hit the books. Now I'm in maternity/ob. Still on track to graduate in Dec. (woohoo!).

sixes · Mar 11, 2003

Yes health coverage should be provide to everyone. The post from RN2B2005 has me fuming:( and embarassed. Here in Ontario Canada everyone is covered (OHIP). The states is a very rich country. How can people not be insured????? This burns me. I am thankful I am CANADIAN.

I had a client, elderly with heart problems. We call them snow birds here. She went to her condo in Florida, and became ill she bought some kind of insurance I'm not sure what kind. Low and behold it didn't cover her illness. She paid to be flown back to canada after she recieved a bill (I saw it with my own eyes) She was in ICU for 3 days cost $50,000.00 It was cheaper for her to fly home.

Why should someone working 2 or 3 jobs to support their family not have coverage?????

Your criminals do. I was even reading on a site where one of the prisoners was getting an organ transplant. HELLO do you tell a single mother of a sick child awaiting transplant that her child will die beacause she works 2 jobs and doesn't have coverage and would never be able to pay for this in a million years.

What is this world coming to?????

Hospitals do probono stuff for people from poor country's here in canada and the states.

Why doesn't some genius in government come up with a tax based system where some of your tax dollars pay's for insurance? It certainly takes your money freely.

EVERYONE REGARDLESS OF FINANCILA STATUS HAS THE RIGHT TO HAVE PROPER HEALTH CARE COVERAGe !!!!!!

THANK GOD I AM CANADIAN

My heart goes out to every single person that has to suffer needlessly in your great and wonderful country the great powerful USA who lets there hard working people suffer needlessly

Q. · Mar 11, 2003

Sixes,

I've read now about 4-5 times, in all caps from you, in several different posts that you are happy to be Canadian. I'm happy for you.

While my country isn't perfect, there are a few of us here who have a problem with our healthcare system, but don't feel that tossing more money at it will solve the problem. I feel that handing out money is the easy way. The hard way (but more effective, in my opinion) is all-out reform, education and a shift to preventative care. There are also issues with working families opting OUT of health insurance to spend their money on other things they see as a priority to them - such as cars, trips, and other material possessions.

Our healthcare is a convoluted mess and is much more complicated and not able to be solved by just taking more tax dollars from us. And even with that opinion, that doesn't mean I am evil, mean, rotten, selfish, greedy or uncaring. In fact I argue the opposite, because I feel I am looking at a more equitable, long term solution that encourages and fosters responsibility and responsible health choices.

And yet despite these problems in our health care, I STILL am happy to say that I wouldn't live anywhere else in the world but the United States of America.

Gromit · Mar 11, 2003

From what I've been reading, Canadians are taxed higher than WE are. Its also easier for a government to do more social programs when it has fewer security concerns (in this case, reads as not much in defense spending). However, I believe its also safe to say that the numbers of Canadians running to the US to get healthcare help FAR outweighs the number of US citizens running to Canada for the same.

Why is that?

JMP · Mar 11, 2003

Gromit

The reason that US citizens do not flock here for our Canadian system is because it is for Canadian citizens. It is not "free for all who can make it to the Canadian boarder"

However, with that said, in my relatively brief time so far as an ICU RN I have nursed two Americans, who had family in Canada. Family, meaning, uncle-aunt-cousin type of family. These Americans did not have insurance ( not too shocking) and they travelled to Canada because they where sick and could not afford treatment. Guess where they ended up? And guess who is paying their bill????

On one hand, I felt good that our Canadian system could help them, however, I also felt sick that your system failed them. I know it is not an easy road, being an uninsured American ....please hear me when I say, I feel for them. I have nursed them.

Canada is not the only country that has universal health care- we did not invent it. Many European nations have it.

The US is a wonderful country full of great people. EVERY PLACE has its faults- God knows Canada is not perfect BUT our jewel in our crown is our health care system.