Is Health Care a Right? - page 15
Just want to see your opinion (friendly discussion, no flaming, please). Is health care a right that should be enjoyed equally here in the U.S.? If so, how would this be financed without breaking... Read More
Jan 24, '03Originally posted by maureeno
assuming the taxable income, the remainder after deductions and exemptions:
Tax payer A $25,000
2002 tax due $3,154
if 20% flat tax $5,000
Tax payer B $115,000
2002 tax due $24,920
if 20% flat tax $23,000
actually have the concept of a poverty line:
Don't tax the first $20,000 of any salary, then flat-tax
the adjusted income.
That way: Tax Payer A pays $1000 in taxes (20% of 25,000-20,000), and Tax Payer B pays $19,000 in taxes.
Perhaps the $20,000 could be tied to the consumer price
What do you all think of that?
Jan 24, '03*sigh*
About the neighbor's kids. Humans are inherently "good." Infants are born pure and nonjudgemental. One place we go wrong as a society is thinking that as a whole, we are not responsible for the upbringing of our (society's) children. What kind of message does that send to them? They feel the message whether one voices it or not. The same goes for the elderly in this country as well as the poor. One definition of society is an organized aggregate of persons who are responsible for a prevailing social order <rules made in the interests of society rather than for the chosen few>. American society is selfish and self-indulgent. We have a feeling of entitlement whether we are standing in a food line or cursing at the tax man for taking a large percentage of our hard earned $250k. There's no difference here. We are all the same.
We as a society blame rather than take responsibility as whole for our problems. And so it is perpetuated. We teach our kids and send messages that the poor only know how to be poor and somehow underserving of our help because they should be able to pull themselves up from the ruins of their life. The rich, rich, and somehow more deserving of their perceived status and immunity from helping those in ruin because they "earned" that right. And the middle of the road is expected to teeter on the brink of doom, and we do. It's never-ending. Our society condems rather than support or provide the tools for change. We spend more money on putting people in prison and maintaining them there than we do educating our young children, especially in the poorest areas of the country. And these deprived kids are the ones who end up in those prisons, yet it's their own fault. It's a case of which came first, the chicken or the egg? One could call the social programs that our taxes pay for "tools" and maybe our heart is in the right place, but the programs are wrong and completely mismanaged. The economy does drive this country and the ones with the $$ have all the power ("the chosen few") and $$ makes the decisions in this country, affecting everyone, but in their own self-absorbed interest--and it's mostly HUGE corporations with all the power, not well-off individuals (who are also wrongfully taken for a ride).
If we send the message to kids, or anyone who doesn't live up to our society's hypocritical standards, that they're not worth our effort then those people are going to believe that they're not and kids grow into adults with the same attitudes. It's cyclic. Talk about breaking the cycle. This is one that surely needs some work.
It all starts with the kids. It's our responsibility not mine or yours. What's that old African adage? "It takes a whole village to raise a child."
~SallyLast edit by Sally_ICURN on Jan 24, '03
Jan 24, '03Off of Yahoo!News
- In an attempt to get millions of Americans with no health insurance access to medical coverage, Sen. John Breaux is pushing a plan that promotes a group insurance rate at the lowest cost.
"Fifteen percent of Americans-one in seven-is uninsured," Breaux, D-La., said in remarks prepared for a Thursday announcement of his plan. "That is simply too many. Providing insurance to all our citizens is simply our duty as a nation."
The Census Bureau reported in September that increasing unemployment rates had pushed the ranks of the uninsured to 41.2 million people in 2001, 1.4 million more people than the previous year.
Breaux, a moderate who has been able to work well with Republicans and Democrats, is proposing that all U.S. citizens have access to a group insurance rate. It would be similar to the federal employees' health program, in which employees are pooled together and the government negotiates the lowest premiums and offers a menu of health plan options. Under Breaux's plan, states would offer the group rates to residents.
States could even join with neighboring states to create larger pools under the proposal. Insurers participating in the pools would be barred from denying a person coverage based on a pre-existing condition.
Tax credits would be offered to low- and middle-income Americans to help pay for premiums. Premiums for the poorest would be fully subsidized.
The government also would establish individual health accounts for the poor. Families could use the money for doctor co-payments, premiums or other health expenses.
President Bush also is weighing in on the political battle over how to increase Americans' health insurance coverage. On Jan. 29 he is to unveil a plan to overhaul Medicare by allowing for more private competition, aides have said. Bush also will ask Congress to pass a GOP-backed prescription drug program for the elderly.
And the president is expected to propose allowing small businesses to pool together and offer health insurance for employees under federal law, skirting state regulations.
Recently, Sen. Edward Kennedy said he planned to introduce legislation that would require all employers with more than five workers to provide health insurance for employees and their dependents. The coverage would have to be as good as that provided for federal employees. For those with low incomes, the government would offer subsidies to help pay premiums.
Jan 24, '03Suzy...while I can share your frustration regarding a lot of the poor decisions some people make and continue to make regardless of the help they have been offered, I guess what people are trying to say is that there are many people out there who AREN'T like this, who have fallen upon hard times and are doing the best they can under the circumstances. If it comes down to paying the rent vs. paying a health insurance premium(which is probably more than the rent), the rent is going to take priority. The problem is you can't dice up the "good" people who have had a stroke of bad luck and the "bad" people who refuse to do anything to help themselves. Also, not everyone is capable of going to graduate school. I'm like you ....I am pursuing higher education in the hopes that I can be self-sufficient and not have to depend on others to support me . Not everyone is like me and you. We don't know what has happened in their lives or their degree of their intellectual ability, emotional stability, etc. As for children not being our responsibility, I believe they are. After all, they are our future. If their parents don't take responsibility for them, should they be left to sink or swim on their own? A lot of kids come from screwed up parents. That's why so many of them grow up nuts. I bet you a lot of the adults out there now who are getting pregnant by different men and lack a work ethic had parents who did the same thing. I don't claim to have the answer. The person who does should get the nobel prize.)Last edit by Flo1216 on Jan 24, '03
Jan 24, '03Sally ICU RN....You said all the things I wanted to say. But you verbalize it so much better than I can
Jan 24, '03Wow, now i have taken the time to read this thread i thank OzNurse69 for her scenario and the replies explaining the US health care system. I am...SHOCKED!! What the ????
I too am VERY happy to be in Australia - no further comments needed!!!!
Jan 24, '03Originally posted by Flo1216
Sally ICU RN....You said all the things I wanted to say.
Jan 24, '03I think that many people who feel that health care should not be a right have conjured up this image in their head of a woman with six kids from six different fathers who lives in section 8 housing and drives a BMW. Her kids all wear name brand clothes and eat McDonald's every night, yet the electric is about to be shut off. Yes, people like this do exist, unfortunately, but so do millions of honest, hardworking Americans who are struggling to pay the rent and put food on the table. Insurance is just not feasible for some. Especially here in New Jersey.
Jan 24, '03maureeno...I wish that more people shared your attitude. The world would be a much better place
Jan 24, '03Suzy - I won't try to expound too much on your ideas. Just adding my agreement. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm shows the leading causes of death in the US in the year 2000. I'll just reference the top six:
Heart Disease: 710,760
Chronic Lower Respiratory Disease: 122,009 *I understand this to mean COPD*
I won't belabor the obvious fact that many of these are HUGELY preventable. We'll all still die of something, but maybe at home in our sleep instead of in a hospital hooked up to who-knows-how-many tubes and lines.
People insisting on top-dollar care and expensive drugs to treat symptoms for illnesses that, in many cases, are within their power to prevent or control is what has gotten us into such a huge mess. Wellness, preventative care, health education - put my tax dollars toward that.
Jan 24, '03I agree about many causes of illness being preventable.However, many people afflicted with such illnesses are insured. So just out of curiosity, are poor lifestyle choices that result in illness or injury forgivable as long as the person making those choices has coverage? IF ALL Americans took better care of themselves, health care premiums wouldn't be so damn high in the first place and there would be less uninsured because people would actually be able to afford insurance. That would be cool. Too bad so many people think they are invincible that they ultimately continue to travel down the path of self-destruction.
Jan 24, '03SINCE STARTING IN THE HEALTH CARE FIELD ABOUT 13 YRS AGO, I HAVE SEEN THE PROFOUNDLY RICH AND THE PROFOUNDLY POOR AND THE LITTLE MAN IN BETWEEN. UNFORTUNATLY IT HAS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE THAT THE RICH CAN OBTAIN ANY KIND OF HEALTH CARE BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PURCHASE THE HIGH COST OF HEALTH INSURANCE. THE PROFOUNDLY POOR CAN OBTAIN ANY KIND OF HEALTH CARE BECAUSE THEY HAVE A BLANK CHECK CALLED MEDICAID.... WHILE THE LITTLE MAN INBETWEEN WHILE WORKING FROM DAY LIGHT TO DARK TO MAKE ENDS MEET MUST DO WITHOUT SINCE THEY ARE NOT RICH ENOUGH TO PAY FOR HEALTH CARE; THEY ARE NOT POOR ENOUGH TO QUALIFY FOR ASSISTANCE AND MANY ARE TO PROUD TO LIE ABOUT THEIR INCOME. WHEN SWITCHING JOBS MY FAMILY AND I WERE WITHOUT MEDICAL INSURANCE FOR THREE MONTHS, I COULD HAVE COBRAED THE INSURANCE HOWEVER FOR ONE MONTH FOR A FAMILY OF 4 IT WOULD HAVE COST $878. THIS DID NOT COVER THE $200 DOLLAR DEDUCTABLE FOR EACH MEMBER UP TO THREE. AND WOULD HAVE ONLY PAID 80% OF THE BILL. WAITED THE THREE MONTHS FOR MY NEW EMPLOYEE HEALTH CARE TO START. AND PRAYED THAT WE DID NOT NEED ANY HEALTH CARE. CAN YOU IMMAGINE THE CASHIER AT WAL-MART WHO IS SO PLEASANT TO YOU TRYING TO MAKE A PAYMENT LIKE THAT TO ENSURE SHE HAD INSURANCE? MY HUSBAND AND I HAD TO SWALLOW OUR PRIDE AND FILE BANKRUPTSY (TO PAY FOR THE FIRST 7 MONTHS OF CARE) WHEN WE FOUND WE WERE PREGNANT WITH OUR FIRST CHILD, WHILE I WAS WORKING AS A NURSE, THE FACILITY I WORKED FOR DID NOT OFFER A HEALTH INSURANCE PLAN. MY HUSBAND WORKED SECURITY THAT DID NOT HAVE HEALTH COVERAGE. I HAD TO QUIT WORK AT 7 MONTHS OF PREGNANCY, A PATIENT IN THE OBGYN OFFICE SUGGESTED I APPLY FOR MEDICAID. I DID AND QUALIFIED FOR FREE MEDICAL CARE. MY CHILD WAS BORN AND I OWED NO ONE ANYTHING. ON MY SECOND CHILD I WORKED FULL TIME AS A LPN, MY HUSBAND WORKED FOR THE SHERIFFS OFFICE. WE HAD INSURANCE AND WE HAD TO PAY APPROXIMATELY $1500 WHEN MY BABY WAS BORN. SO WHICH IS THE BETTER DEAL? WORK AND PAY MORE FOR ANY HEALTH CARE OR DO NOT WORK AND PAY NOTHING FOR HEALTH CARE. IF WE HAD A UNIVERSAL STANDARD OF HEALTH CARE ACROSS THE BOARD FOR EVERYONE THEN WE COULD POSSIBLY ELIMINATE THE DRASTIC DIFFERENCES IN WHO CAN AFFORD HEALTH CARE. YES I DO GET MAD WHEN I SEE A PERSON WHO HAS NOT WORKED A DAY IN THEIR LIFE, WHO HAS TAKEN POOR CARE OF THEIR HEALTH USE MY HARD EARNED MONEY (I PAY TAXES ON ALL THE MONEY I MAKE, SO THAT THEY CAN GET THE HEATH CARE I CAN'T AFFORD) TO PAY FOR HEALTH CARE THAT I HESITATE TO ASK FOR BECAUSE I KNOW I CAN'T AFFORD IT. MY PAYCHECK IS LIMITED WHILE THIERS IS UNLIMITED.