Health Care is Not a Right

[Tetra]

Before we get into it, I'm going into first year nursing... but I'm not some young kid. I'm 34, married with a family, studied philosophy in my early 20's, and lived well below the poverty line for my entire life. I'm saying this to avoid any fallacious arguments stemming from status or authority.

Now that's out of the way...

Why is health care not a right?

It's not a right because it requires others to fund your health care costs. You do not have a right to the money of other people.

What about those in need of health care?

We all love helping people, and that's important. Which is why there are countless organizations, churches, synagogues, companies, online charitable organizations, and other opportunities for your access.

If health care is a right, it's immoral.

A socialist view of health care requires the theft of citizens money through taxation to fund your health care needs. Just because I need health care does not mean I can take money of others, even when done through governmental force.

What's the difference between access to things like fire services, and health care services? They're all services aren't they?

The difference is that citizens who pay for services should receive services. Taxation pays for fire services, people are therefore owed that service.Consider, outside of municipalities where services aren't paid for, firefighting is volunteer, or paid for out of pocket. At least that's how it works in Canada...

When is health care a right then?

When you pay for it, however, it's a contractual right. Not a human right. I'm owed the service because I paid for it, that's it.

Who's responsible to take care of me then?

You are. Crazy idea right?

Are there exceptions?

Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.

I suspect heading into a Canadian nursing program with my views will be an interesting experience.

[amoLucia]

You DO have an interesting point of view.

It does remind me of the comparison also of garbage services. Some municipalities do NOT have garbage pickup. One must drag the trash bags to the dump site themselves. Not a job for me to cherish, so I'll pay the tax instead.

[Fiona59]

Yes, you are in for a very interesting time if indeed you are going into a Canadian nursing programme.

If you are a Canadian, you have taken advantage of universal healthcare (which is different from socialized healthcare) all of your life. Your children and partner have used it. You have received a heavily subsidized education for both your philosophy degree and now the nursing programme you are about to enter.

Do you accept child tax credits? I didn't receive any because our combined income said we didn't need it, so in effect I've been subsidizing you and your family for years.

How will you deal with working with people who know how to work the system? I work in an inner city facility and trust me many members of the inner city know to the last dime what they are entitled to.

In your philosophy studies did you ever encounter the concept of "the greater good"?

[TriciaJ, RN]

Yes, it will be interesting for you. Depends also on the province and which way the wind is currently blowing. I'm with you that health care is not a right just like groceries aren't a right. If it's a right, then it's someone's responsibility to pay for it. (By the way, past tense is "paid" not "payed".)

You will find, wherever you work as a nurse, that there is some sort of a system. You will learn where the glaring holes are in your system, and who is skilled at playing it. You will find people who are willing to take a pragmatic viewpoint and try to educate themselves about all the aspects of a particular system. You will find many more people who have no clue how things really work, don't want to have a clue because they don't want to get down from their self-righteous soap box.

I've worked in 2 provinces and 1 state and can tell you the pluses and minuses of each. I don't know what the answer is. Health care has become very expensive, and people's expectations have far outstripped what they're willing to pay for.

Good luck in your nursing career. Never stop thinking, growing and adjusting your opinion when new information comes to light. All the best to you.

[Tetra]

Yes, you are in for a very interesting time if indeed you are going into a Canadian nursing programme.

If you are a Canadian, you have taken advantage of universal healthcare (which is different from socialized healthcare) all of your life. Your children and partner have used it. You have received a heavily subsidized education for both your philosophy degree and now the nursing programme you are about to enter.

Do you accept child tax credits? I didn't receive any because our combined income said we didn't need it, so in effect I've been subsidizing you and your family for years.

How will you deal with working with people who know how to work the system? I work in an inner city facility and trust me many members of the inner city know to the last dime what they are entitled to.

In your philosophy studies did you ever encounter the concept of "the greater good"?

You bring up some interesting points. It's been very difficult for me being a Canadian libertarian... I grew up here, not much I can do but hope for change. I plan on taking my degree and leaving for the US as soon as I can to be honest.

As to your comments, my partner and I have always worked, so I too have been paying into the benefits that I receive. Also, we have always tried to not use the health care system as much as possible, and we do that through preventative measures. That is, my wife and I are both into bodybuilding and fitness, and maintain an impeccable diet... even when we were at our poorest (when we went bankrupt).

Now, in Canada, you will receive benefits, that doesn't mean that I don't think some of that is wrong. Not much I can do but leave, and trust me, I'm planning on it. I think the Canadian health care system is failing. Unless I'm wrong... and there haven't been job cuts? Are hospitals over funded? Pretty much no wait times for patients right? Here's the thing, Canada needs to change or we're gonna be in big trouble soon, that's for sure. We pride ourselves on a failing health care system, only look at the good, and ignore the trouble we're in.

I think the greater good is important, but here's the thing, many don't. I simply don't think it's right that we take the money of those who might not hold a similar view to perpetuate our own beliefs about life.

[Tetra]

Yes, it will be interesting for you. Depends also on the province and which way the wind is currently blowing. I'm with you that health care is not a right just like groceries aren't a right. If it's a right, then it's someone's responsibility to pay for it. (By the way, past tense is "paid" not "payed".)

Dang it, good catch! Wish I caught that typo.

You will find, wherever you work as a nurse, that there is some sort of a system. You will learn where the glaring holes are in your system, and who is skilled at playing it. You will find people who are willing to take a pragmatic viewpoint and try to educate themselves about all the aspects of a particular system. You will find many more people who have no clue how things really work, don't want to have a clue because they don't want to get down from their self-righteous soap box.

I've worked in 2 provinces and 1 state and can tell you the pluses and minuses of each. I don't know what the answer is. Health care has become very expensive, and people's expectations have far outstripped what they're willing to pay for.

Good luck in your nursing career. Never stop thinking, growing and adjusting your opinion when new information comes to light. All the best to you.

I certainly don't know everything, this is just my current position after some thought. Thank you for the good luck wishes, and I certainly hope to always grow and learn! :) This has just been weighing on my mind so felt it necessary to share my thoughts, even if they might not be popular.

[MunoRN, RN]

You've argued that healthcare is different than something like use of a fire department because fire departments are paid for by taxes, so those who pay into those taxes should have access to fire departments, but in Canada healthcare is paid for through taxes, primarily the PST and GST which is almost impossible not to pay into, I've paid into the Canadian healthcare system through PST and GST and I am not Canadian and do not live there.

[MunoRN, RN]

You bring up some interesting points. It's been very difficult for me being a Canadian libertarian... I grew up here, not much I can do but hope for change. I plan on taking my degree and leaving for the US as soon as I can to be honest.

As to your comments, my partner and I have always worked, so I too have been paying into the benefits that I receive. Also, we have always tried to not use the health care system as much as possible, and we do that through preventative measures. That is, my wife and I are both into bodybuilding and fitness, and maintain an impeccable diet... even when we were at our poorest (when we went bankrupt).

Now, in Canada, you will receive benefits, that doesn't mean that I don't think some of that is wrong. Not much I can do but leave, and trust me, I'm planning on it. I think the Canadian health care system is failing. Unless I'm wrong... and there haven't been job cuts? Are hospitals over funded? Pretty much no wait times for patients right? Here's the thing, Canada needs to change or we're gonna be in big trouble soon, that's for sure. We pride ourselves on a failing health care system, only look at the good, and ignore the trouble we're in.

I think the greater good is important, but here's the thing, many don't. I simply don't think it's right that we take the money of those who might not hold a similar view to perpetuate our own beliefs about life.

An unsustainable healthcare system would be one that is far more expensive than other comparable systems, and where the rate of inflation far exceeds general inflation. Canada's healthcare system is by far one of the most sustainable in the world, Canada pays one-third of what we pay in the US per person, and the rate of healthcare inflation is actually less than general inflation, rising only $35 per person last year, whereas in the US inflation is measured in the many hundreds of dollars from year to year.

[Tetra]

You've argued that healthcare is different than something like use of a fire department because fire departments are paid for by taxes, so those who pay into those taxes should have access to fire departments, but in Canada healthcare is paid for through taxes, primarily the PST and GST which is almost impossible not to pay into, I've paid into the Canadian healthcare system through PST and GST and I am not Canadian and do not live there.

Not sure what you're getting at. I've already agreed that if one pays into a system, they should have access to that system. That makes it a contractual right though, not a human right was my point.

[Tetra]

An unsustainable healthcare system would be one that is far more expensive than other comparable systems, and where the rate of inflation far exceeds general inflation. Canada's healthcare system is by far one of the most sustainable in the world, Canada pays one-third of what we pay in the US per person, and the rate of healthcare inflation is actually less than general inflation, rising only $35 per person last year, whereas in the US inflation is measured in the many hundreds of dollars from year to year.

So we're playing a game of who is the best of the worst?

[MunoRN, RN]

Not sure what you're getting at. I've already agreed that if one pays into a system, they should have access to that system. That makes it a contractual right though, not a human right was my point.

Even in the US healthcare is something that is legally required to be provided to everyone, you don't think that requirement is based on a right to healthcare? If not, what are those laws based on?

[Tetra]

Even in the US healthcare is something that is legally required to be provided to everyone, you don't think that requirement is based on a right to healthcare? If not, what are those laws based on?

It's what is known as a "positive right" and it's something I'm vehemently against.