Death Cafes should nurses be a part of them?

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tewdles, RN

3,156 Posts

Specializes in PICU, NICU, L&D, Public Health, Hospice.
ok then...how about:

- goner with the wind?

- taste & waste?

- the last supper?

- fare today, gone tomorrow?

- ice_cream for heaven?

heh.

silly mood, i guess.:cheeky:

leslie

We don't often get to see the silly side...funny les!

Specializes in ICU, CM, Geriatrics, Management.

Absolutely, they should!

Who else could render more compassionate service?

Kidrn911

331 Posts

Specializes in Peds ED, Peds Stem Cell Transplant, Peds.

Solyent Green

tulip5

31 Posts

There is a time and place for everything... and generally this (the time and manner of your demise) is one of the most personal and intimate subjects anyone will ever make. There is a reason these things are called "personal". The notion that nothing of substance exists unless it's publicized and hashed out in "the community" is just weird.

That we somehow NEED death cafes (or chat-rooms or whatever) tells me that nihilism is the prevailing religion for many in the west.

allnurses Guide

nursel56

7,078 Posts

Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.

The topic of death is certainly personal, but that notion of personal doesn't exclude a desire to get together with other people to discuss it, and has nothing to do with nihilism. It's only intimate in the sense that nobody can go through that with you or for you, like birth.

Birth and death are things that societies all over the world have developed a variety of ways of dealing with. Not one that I can think of ignores either one or considers talking about it "weird". I'm not a big fan of chat rooms, but I don't see how a chat room tells you anything about nihilism or where it is prevalent globally than any other type of social gathering.

tulip5

31 Posts

OK... how about this: In most cultures for most of history most people have worked out their thoughts, feelings, and beliefs about their demise with those closest to them. Maybe their pastor. Perhaps their attorney (because you can't take it with you...)

Speaking professionally, there has always been something rather sacred about sharing that parting moment with families of patients, or even patients themselves. It is simultaneously so bitter and so sweet. It's a unique privilege. And that moment of death is something as precious within a family as the welcoming of a new life. It's fraught with implications for the future, and understandings of the past. Who can weigh the meaning of my passing if they don't even know me. Can a stranger understand what you felt when you lost your mother or father or first born? Of course not.

Yes, hashing it out with strangers is weird. And actually, I rather think it is a counter-intuitive way to deny death. In the old days it was called "whistling past the graveyard." Politics, the latest haute cuisine, the craziest reality shows on TV, the Kardashians and death. Hey, waiter, bring me another latte will you?

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nursel56

7,078 Posts

Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
OK... how about this: In most cultures for most of history most people have worked out their thoughts, feelings, and beliefs about their demise with those closest to them. Maybe their pastor. Perhaps their attorney (because you can't take it with you...)

Speaking professionally, there has always been something rather sacred about sharing that parting moment with families of patients, or even patients themselves. It is simultaneously so bitter and so sweet. It's a unique privilege. And that moment of death is something as precious within a family as the welcoming of a new life. It's fraught with implications for the future, and understandings of the past. Who can weigh the meaning of my passing if they don't even know me. Can a stranger understand what you felt when you lost your mother or father or first born? Of course not.

Yes, hashing it out with strangers is weird. And actually, I rather think it is a counter-intuitive way to deny death. In the old days it was called "whistling past the graveyard." Politics, the latest haute cuisine, the craziest reality shows on TV, the Kardashians and death. Hey, waiter, bring me another latte will you?

My experience and most of the reading I've done indicates that it is actually more true that people are reluctant to talk about their death with people close to them because they don't want to upset them, and the family is similarly afraid to bring it up because they don't know what their loved one's understanding is and don't want to upset them. When my mother was dying one of my best friends tried to shut me down when I began to talk about my mother because he didn't want to see me upset. The end result may be that there is much left unsaid and someone may leave this world feeling isolated. One of the quotes in the article upon which this thread is based is:

"My partner doesn't want to talk about dying, especially about my dying, so it gave me a chance to explore ideas with other people. I found comfort in that."

That one quote is enough for me to drop any incipient thoughts of likening the death cafés to an actual place to order coffee or to other icons of shallowness in our popular culture.

tulip5

31 Posts

"My partner doesn't want to talk about dying, especially about my dying, so it gave me a chance to explore ideas with other people. I found comfort in that."

And therein lies the tragedy. I feel great sadness and compassion for the individual. The cafe served a good purpose for him/her and one hopes this person found a sympathetic ear.

But a culture that sees death cafes as something to celebrate... what have we become?

Specializes in ICU.
But a culture that sees death cafes as something to celebrate... what have we become?

Honest.

I get where you're coming from, but I can't help but think about something my instructor said to me in an elective philosophy of death and dying class I took one semester in college. He made the point that the world used to be more like you described - with death being intimate and shared within a family. He also said those kinds of discussions were possible because the dying person knew he/she was dying. You fell off a horse and broke your leg, you could die. You got pneumonia and you could die. The time of death was no secret and anticipating it was what lead to discussions. However, now very few people know when they will die. People can die and be brought back to life countless times before permanent death occurs, so there is absolutely no certainty at all surrounding death. Humans don't like uncertainty and the unknown, which death has become with modern medicine. Death used to be a fact of everyday life but it's just not anymore.

I think these kinds of cafes are necessary now because death is something to be feared in this culture and is often never shared with anyone. It's not within the family anymore. I don't know exactly what the statistics are for someone dying at home surrounded by loved ones, but I'm sure it's pretty low. We tend to hide our dying people in long term care and hospitals in the US, and with death sterilized and hidden away as if it's something foreign and scary it can be a difficult subject for people to broach. I'm glad someone's getting people to talk about death. We're all going to die one day, and being scared to death of death itself and planning for death doesn't do anyone good.

allnurses Guide

nursel56

7,078 Posts

Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
"My partner doesn't want to talk about dying, especially about my dying, so it gave me a chance to explore ideas with other people. I found comfort in that."

And therein lies the tragedy. I feel great sadness and compassion for the individual. The cafe served a good purpose for him/her and one hopes this person found a sympathetic ear.

But a culture that sees death cafes as something to celebrate... what have we become?

Hopefully it's just another avenue that fills a need in some people. I didn't really see it as so much different than any other support group, albeit an unusual one for our country (as the article stated the trend started in England). I see your point that the word "café" adds a layer of meaning (or lack thereof) not present in other groups of people who gather to discuss a common subject.

Specializes in ICU, CM, Geriatrics, Management.

Simply one example: Many of the terminally ill wish to avoid the institutional end typically meted out by our society.

At the same time, many family members / friends prefer not to participate in any other alternative.

Now we have a demand for a service.

Enter the Death Cafe... or chose your preferred noun for the service provider.

I see both sides of the story, but I also think that electronic media and the ability to reach out to people one has never met - and interact with them online - has changed the dying experience, so to speak. People may no longer feel as if they are dying alone (especially the ones who ARE, for whatever circumstances, having to do this alone), that there are people whom they can talk to without boundaries or restrictions, that they can quite literally say anything to without fear of rejection or of hurting someone they love.

There have been cultures throughout history that celebrated death. The electronic age hasn't created this - it's always been there. I don't think people are thinking that 'hashing' out the details in public is creating something of substance. I think it's more of a validation of the experience and an acknowledgement of the process. We are all, after all, guaranteed to do it eventually. If it's a long, drawn-out, 'conscious' process (as it is so often in my world where I've discharged perfectly 'normal' looking people who are, for all intents and purposes, leaving the hospital to die), and you're sort of waiting for it to happen, I can see where chatting with others who are having a similar experience (or even 'safe' people) could be a comfort and a relief.

I've watched people die who literally died alone - and not by choice. Relatively young people (sixty and less) who had absolutely no one left in the world for whatever reason. It's heartbreaking. And there have been ones who wanted that way - and that's fine too. I respect the decision as fiercely as I do that of the ones who want 'help' and friends and everyone around them.

We're not celebrating death. We're celebrating, I think, the ability and resources that now exist for those who need or desire it.

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