Controversial Michael Moore Flick 'Sicko' Will Compare U.S. Health Care with Cuba's - page 25

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  1. by   fronkey bean
    Too true!!
  2. by   fronkey bean
    Quote from headsup
    I have not seen whatever it is you are talking about, and I really do not wish to. If it was the same as the other website, I would have the same opinion. The website mentioned is crass, venemous and - as far as I can tell - a vitriolic diatribe against a person who the administrator intensely dislikes.

    ANY argument would have much more credibility if they cite a credible source.

    And as for Universal healthcare. I just won't bother with you. You seem to forget that it is thriving and alive and well in many, many countries that rank much higher than the US's miserable 37th place in the World Health statistics.

    I am not saying it is perfect. I am not saying that it would work in the US. But it DOES work.
    You know that is my point w/ MM is not a credible source (Fox News and other conservative news and information outlets have shown areas of his films where he has distorted the truth beyond recognition, see some of the early posts in this thread). How can we even begin to try to work towards a comprimise when the leading and most visible proponent of UHC is as untrustworthy as MM. and as far as how well it is working in other countries, there is a huge cost in taxes not to mention the wait for service. It is not the panacea you think it is.
  3. by   fronkey bean
    Quote from Tweety
    It would be a given that care would be restricted. However, I would still think that in America if you could afford it, you would get it. Same as now.

    As a middle class insured person, my care is restricted now. I go where United Health Care sends me, and if they don't think I need a procedure, I don't get it unless I want to pay for it myself.

    We're used to it.
    Difference in a UHC syst is that services will be so over whelmed even if you want to pay for it you may not be able to.
  4. by   fronkey bean
    Quote from Mentuhotep I
    Millions of people are moving or trying to move here because of the relative wealth that exists especially when compared to developing nations. IF we use developing nations as the barometer by which to judge America, I would say that it would not be a fair comparison. America is the richest country in the history of the world and the fact that it has millions of its citizens (many of whom are veterans) without adequate health care is a crying shame. Its really sad when you look at the fact that as you read this line, the U. S. is spending millions of dollars to kill people in the middle east. Sad indeed, but only in america.
    Or spending millions of dollars to save lives in America and other nations - depends on your point of view. Sorry, don't mean to sound self-righteous (I'm sure you didn't either) but it is not so black and white.
  5. by   fronkey bean
    Quote from battpos
    Where could I find out about MM deliberately twisting facts?
    battpos, just google Micheal Moore and you will come up with a few dozen sites that talk about MM and his work - both positive and negative sites. Spend a few min. looking through a few of each and I think you will see why I believe him to be dishonest in how he presents facts. One that is concise and organized is:

    http://www.eppc.org/publications/pub...pub_detail.asp

    By the way, I realize that at times their dislike for MM shows but that does not mean that they have no valid points. When talking about someone you think is lying it is hard to keep a neutral tone as is evidenced by MM's often scathing remarks about GWB.
    Last edit by fronkey bean on Jun 27, '07 : Reason: wanted to add second paragraph
  6. by   fronkey bean
    Quote from teeituptom
    You prove my point for me, thank you. There are millions and millions who fall through the gap. Yes in the old days I saw pro bono programs set up, and by pro bono you mean hospitals and doctors just have to take the loss.. Now they are all funded by the government, no one works for free, And I havent seen any little or no cost private clinics around. None. And prescription programs that limit the amount of medication you can get. Sorry you have exceeded your allotment of vicodin for the time period, you will now have to be pain free all on your own untill this period is up. And dont get me started why they limit us old timers on the amount of viagra we can take. Now you also talk about a myriad of other programs. Sorry I dont see them out there.
    My point is, Take all of this and put it under one system, It can be managed much more efficiently, and everyone without question can be taken care of. That seems more appropiate to me.
    As I said in another post, a compromise of the current insurance syst. and a gov't program for those who fall through the gap is not unreasonable but to make the entire system for all a gov't program is. Instead of a few people falling through the gap you would end up with everyone having gaps in their service and everyone paying alot more in taxes than I do in insurance premiums now.
    As for programs that help those in the gap, I'll just tell you about two that I am familiar with. The hosp. I work for has had for many years a med. assistance program that finds free meds through the drug companies for those who can't afford them, I've talked w/ the woman who headed it up and they said they never had a case where they couldn't get meds for someone. On the private side, there are two clinics in my area, one provides free prenatal care for uncomplicated pregnancies up to 16 weeks (if there are complications they have an arrangement w/ the local OB/GYN GROUP). After 16wks they assign a vol. to each mom to help her get care through the local health dept. The other clinic is run by one of the local ER docs who saw the ER being overrun w/ sore throats and other minor ailments and started the clinic to take care of those kind of minor things for folks w/o insurance.
    BTW, what about the health dept.? What about state programs that provide health care for all kids under 18? I'm pretty sure every state has one. then there is Medicaid and similar state programs. There are options. It is not perfect, but neither is UHC.
    Why must socialized medicine be the only answer?
  7. by   NRSKarenRN
    please remember when making personal comments in our threads, to avoid offensive generalizations, keep focused on the title subject of thread and provide credible links to support positions.

    glad to see all the new posters in this forum. thanks fronkey bean for posting ethics and public policy center link. from their about page:


    founded in 1976, the ethics and public policy center is washington, d.c.'s premier institute dedicated to applying the judeo-christian moral tradition to critical issues of public policy. from the cold war to the war on terrorism, from disputes over the role of religion in public life to battles over the nature of the family, eppc and its scholars have consistently sought to defend the great western ethical imperatives -- respect for the inherent dignity of the human person, individual freedom and responsibility, justice, the rule of law, and limited government.

    eppc is unique among washington think tanks in its ability to develop and promote these ethical imperatives:
    • we deal openly and explicitly with religious and moral issues in addressing contemporary issues. we work to clarify the ways in which moral principles shape the choices that political leaders must make in our democracy.
    • we are genuinely ecumenical and interreligious. our protestant, catholic, and jewish scholars probe the riches of their own traditions, forge alliances within their communities, and work together to promote a shared understanding of the common good.

    allnurses staff works to embrace these ideas in keeping with our terms of service


    debates
    we promote the idea of lively debate. this means you are free to disagree with anyone on any type of subject matter as long as your criticism is constructive and polite.

    this film appears to call into question the idea that "limited government" involvement in healthcare is good public policy. other western countries since mid-20th century have decided that healthcare coverage is a basic human right and have provided it to all their citizens.

    am sure our wise nurses here can help greatly shape this debate.
  8. by   teeituptom
    Quote from jyoung1950
    And why people continue to think that universal healthcare is "free" is beyond me.

    That old saying, "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" comes to mind.

    If a service is going to be supplied by the government it has to be paid for somehow. And that is through taxation.

    Higher taxation for all of us writing on this thread and in this forum.

    Now someone told me some time ago that Hilary's healthcare plan back in 1993 involved our corporations anteing up alot of the monies for universal health care. As he told me, employers would pay about a dollar and some cents per hour of work per employee. As I didn't pay any attention back then to Hilarycare, I can't say if this was the truth or not. I'm sure someone on this thread remembers the facts.

    Regardless, if that goes through, we all can also kiss our raises goodbye.
    Of course it isn't free. Higher taxation and inflation are right around the corner anyway due to the illegal war debt built up by the Bush admin. Doesnt matter who is elected, it is going to happen. Big War causes Big Debt Causes big inflation and big taxation. This is historic. But even still Universal Health Care is far cheaper. At least it will accomplish something and maybe meet its goals. Bush hasn't met his war goals.
  9. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from headsup
    You know, I don't have much of a dog in this fight, and I certainly am ambivilent about Michael Moore. However, to quote that venemous, vitriolic website as a source of any kind shows an appalling lack of character and judgement.
    The reason I posted that website was in reference to specific WRONG information being posted about an event on that website.

    steph
  10. by   teeituptom
    Quote from fronkey bean
    As I said in another post, a compromise of the current insurance syst. and a gov't program for those who fall through the gap is not unreasonable but to make the entire system for all a gov't program is. Instead of a few people falling through the gap you would end up with everyone having gaps in their service and everyone paying alot more in taxes than I do in insurance premiums now.
    As for programs that help those in the gap, I'll just tell you about two that I am familiar with. The hosp. I work for has had for many years a med. assistance program that finds free meds through the drug companies for those who can't afford them, I've talked w/ the woman who headed it up and they said they never had a case where they couldn't get meds for someone. On the private side, there are two clinics in my area, one provides free prenatal care for uncomplicated pregnancies up to 16 weeks (if there are complications they have an arrangement w/ the local OB/GYN GROUP). After 16wks they assign a vol. to each mom to help her get care through the local health dept. The other clinic is run by one of the local ER docs who saw the ER being overrun w/ sore throats and other minor ailments and started the clinic to take care of those kind of minor things for folks w/o insurance.
    BTW, what about the health dept.? What about state programs that provide health care for all kids under 18? I'm pretty sure every state has one. then there is Medicaid and similar state programs. There are options. It is not perfect, but neither is UHC.
    Why must socialized medicine be the only answer?
    I dont see it as being socialized for one. The Police departments and Fire departments aren't socialized. I don't see the various miltary branches as being socialized. They work very well. With kudos to all involved. So why not Universal healthcare. The only people calling it socialized are the conservatists and ultra conservatists. They call it socialist medicine just to imply and slant others views against it. relying on our historical dislike of communism and socialism. So calling it socialized medicine to me anyway seems like a misnomer except that the conservatists like the term and the dislike of anything termed socialized.
  11. by   CRNI-ICU20
    To Teeituptom:
    Where, exactly do fire/police departments get their budgets to provide services? They are not private entities....they are SOCIALLY funded, ie our taxes....yes...they are universally provided services....in some areas, it is true, ie, rural areas, some people pay a yearly premium for fire protection, but their police departments are provided as a basic need and human right by the taxes each of us pay....how is this NOT socialized? When your house is on fire, the fire department doesn't say,"well, let's see, you had a pre-existing condition with your wiring, so, we are just going to stand here and watch it burn..." or, "I'm sorry, you didn't pay your premium this month, so eventhough you have an intruder breaking into your house, our officers will not arrive to protect you!" We all go to sleep at night knowing that if our houses catch fire, or our child stops breathing, or if some lame fool breaks in and attempts to do harm to us, we have protection....that is socially provided through our taxes.
    We pay higher and higher taxes anyway....and we pay even higher premiums with less coverage and higher deductables because when the disenfranchised do not have access, hospitals are required to treat them when they come into an ER....if their illness is devastaing, requiring long months of rehab, or treatment, or surgery, who ultimately is paying for that???
  12. by   teeituptom
    Quote from CRNI-ICU20
    To Teeituptom:
    Where, exactly do fire/police departments get their budgets to provide services? They are not private entities....they are SOCIALLY funded, ie our taxes....yes...they are universally provided services....in some areas, it is true, ie, rural areas, some people pay a yearly premium for fire protection, but their police departments are provided as a basic need and human right by the taxes each of us pay....how is this NOT socialized? When your house is on fire, the fire department doesn't say,"well, let's see, you had a pre-existing condition with your wiring, so, we are just going to stand here and watch it burn..." or, "I'm sorry, you didn't pay your premium this month, so eventhough you have an intruder breaking into your house, our officers will not arrive to protect you!" We all go to sleep at night knowing that if our houses catch fire, or our child stops breathing, or if some lame fool breaks in and attempts to do harm to us, we have protection....that is socially provided through our taxes.
    We pay higher and higher taxes anyway....and we pay even higher premiums with less coverage and higher deductables because when the disenfranchised do not have access, hospitals are required to treat them when they come into an ER....if their illness is devastaing, requiring long months of rehab, or treatment, or surgery, who ultimately is paying for that???
    and look what a wonderfull job 'Governmental Tax based funding" Does with the FD and the PD. I dont consider that social. And where in the constitution does it list police and fire departments as a human right. We pay for it.
    And just maybe the gov't will do as wonderfull a job with Universal Health Care. We are already paying increaseing premiums and deductables for the disenfranchised, why not take that and pay for universal Health Care. Seems to me it should balance out.
    Last edit by teeituptom on Jun 27, '07 : Reason: spelling error
  13. by   CRNI-ICU20
    To Teeituptom:
    Where, exactly do fire/police departments get their budgets to provide services? They are not private entities....they are SOCIALLY funded, ie our taxes....yes...they are universally provided services....in some areas, it is true, ie, rural areas, some people pay a yearly premium for fire protection, but their police departments are provided as a basic need and human right by the taxes each of us pay....how is this NOT socialized? When your house is on fire, the fire department doesn't say,"well, let's see, you had a pre-existing condition with your wiring, so, we are just going to stand here and watch it burn..." or, "I'm sorry, you didn't pay your premium this month, so eventhough you have an intruder breaking into your house, our officers will not arrive to protect you!" We all go to sleep at night knowing that if our houses catch fire, or our child stops breathing, or if some lame fool breaks in and attempts to do harm to us, we have protection....that is socially provided through our taxes.
    We pay higher and higher taxes anyway....and we pay even higher premiums with less coverage and higher deductibles because when the disenfranchised do not have access, hospitals are required to treat them when they come into an ER....if their illness is devastaing, requiring long months of rehab, or treatment, or surgery, who ultimately is paying for that??? The hospitals have to somehow recover those costs....so eventually, when you go in for your elective hernia repair, instead of a reasonable cost, they double the amount to make up for what the person who is uninsured did not have....that translates to higher premiums and deductibles for you and I....so, the answer may lie in transitioning people who are uninsured into shared responsibility programs, where they pay a part, based on their ability to pay, and we pay a part via taxes, and employers pay a part. I for one, would not be adverse to paying for someone to have access to health care....
    At a time when most county govt's are closing health clinics, shutting down whole hospital wings, while at the same time, the rates of child hood diabetes, autism, low birth weight babies, and heart disease among women are on the rise, YOU BET I CARE WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE PEOPLE. These are your neighbors, and maybe even members of your own family....
    I cannot understand the thinking that because some are fortunate enough to have health coverage, that they don't need or don't feel the need to give a rat's patoot about the next guy....that doesn't seem very American, or patriotic, or even Christian, if you will, to me...
    As for many who argue that your wages will be affected by a universal health care system, there is no evidence to back that.....and quite a bit of evidence to dispute those fear-based claims.
    Just today, the CDC released new evidence that 2 million more people are without health care coverage.....
    What do you think will happen to these people and our current broken system in two more years? five years? ten years?
    In five years, many of you here will be wanting to retire....do you think your current health care coverage will stay the same as you age? Who will you rely on if there is no way to get your needed medications?
    Here is something for all of us to think about:

    How many of you have heard someone say this: "I hate my job...but I keep working in a toxic and damaging job because I need the health insurance."?
    Happy people are healthy people....how many of you know someone who would leave their jobs in a NY minute if they had the assurance that they would have health care coverage, no matter what?
    People who are happy, are also productive and creative....and they require LESS health care visits....(this is evidenced based, by the way)....
    Just take a step back for a minute and think what a difference in people's general physical and mental health just this one thing would make in their lives....to know that if they are ever really sick, they need not worry about their health....that they are covered...
    While Laura Bush is trotting around Africa worrying about malaria and handing out mosquito nets, we have people on South Side Chicago, Los Angeles, Bronx, Detroit, Denver, SanAntonio, Seattle, who do not have access to health care...how are their lives any LESS THAN someone in Namibia, or Ghana?
    Yes, some can go sign up the stack of 30 pages of 8X11 single spaced lines that is required in some health care plans in order to maybe be approved....and God help you if someone in the outsourced managed care companies finds some picayune reason to deny you coverage....
    This is the reality for most of these people....
    How some here can turn their heads away from this reality and not look at it for it's blinding truth, is beyond me....
    If we don't even take care of our own, what does that say about us as a country? As a village, as a community? What does the world see us as? We can drop food and water to any country in the world within HOURS, (PhuKet, Thailand), but we cannot provide decent adequate health care for our own citizens? I take care of some of these patients....who I end up discharging home ( and sometimes to the street)with no follow up care....no one to change bandages, or monitor wound care, or follow up with diabetic teaching, or make sure those heart meds are sufficient....and so many end up right back on our doorstep, in worse shape, at higher costs....because the door is closed to them at the doctor's office, or the health care clinic.
    Are we just supposed to just let them lay down and die and step on over them on our way to the pharmacy for our OWN medications?
    Whatever you think about MM, he has stirred in all of us what has been on pollsters lips for the last thirty years....it is the number one or number two priority....and here we are, innert, polarized....
    I would really like to see some rational and thoughtful solutions....
    not fear based, personal attacks....
    WE are nurses, and we should expect better of ourselves and each other.....
    jmo.crni

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