NP education - a rant - page 8

I came to the site today and saw lot's of posts of wonderfully excited people interested in becoming NP's. The vast majority of the tones of education were: "I have the opportunity to become and NP... Read More

  1. by   Jess RN
    I just don't see how someone with no nursing experience could learn this field in 3 semesters. Do you?
    I'm confused. At local community colleges anyone can get an RN in 4 semesters- 2 years of full time study. My understanding is that is pretty much standard and has been for years. For someone with a bachelor's degree who has already fulfilled some of the general requirements (English comp, algebra, psych. etc) It should be totally "do-able" to finish an ADN in three semesters- since you likely would only be taking the nursing classes and clinicals.

    If you are talking about getting a master's degree in three semesters- I don't know any programs direct entry or otherwise that grant an MSN in that amount of time. The standard for a non thesis masters degree is usually two academic years- or four semesters. If you add in summer terms it may be possible to finish the degree in under two academic years- but I think it's likely credit-wise it would be closer to the standard 4 semesters.

    Getting an RN and a master's degree for someone who has no nursing experience takes a heck of a lot longer that this- so I guess I don't really know what you are referring to.

    -Jessica
  2. by   fotografe
    The accelerated bachelor's program I am accepted to starts in January and ends a year later in May. It is 17 months long, but you do not have the summer off, so you are going 4 semesters. You do take a few additional nursing courses to earn a BSN, rather than ADN, but those are more theory than clinical. You come in with all of of your general education and science coursework completed -- it is only the nursing portion that is accelerated. And that acceleration only comes due to the fact you do not have the summer off So it really isn't a short-cut. It has taken 4 + years to prep for entry to the nursing program. For non-science majors, it is 4 years plus at least 1 more to get the science work done.

    As far as Direct Entry Master's programs in my area, the RN portion is set-up in the same way. You don't get a BSN, but do sit for the NCLEX at the end of the first 16 months. The MSN portion at one school begins after you work 9 months to a year as an RN. Then you return for alternating classroom and full-time coop experiences. The other programs encourage the MSN portion to be completed part-time while working. It doesn't have to be though.

    I didn't choose the MSN route due to the fact that you must choose your specialization when you apply, and I really want to work the floors before I make that decision. My leaning is towards primary care, but I am also very interested in anesthesia. For me, the better option is to get my RN, rather than NP first.


    Quote from future nurse jess
    I'm confused. At local community colleges anyone can get an RN in 4 semesters- 2 years of full time study. My understanding is that is pretty much standard and has been for years. For someone with a bachelor's degree who has already fulfilled some of the general requirements (English comp, algebra, psych. etc) It should be totally "do-able" to finish an ADN in three semesters- since you likely would only be taking the nursing classes and clinicals.

    If you are talking about getting a master's degree in three semesters- I don't know any programs direct entry or otherwise that grant an MSN in that amount of time. The standard for a non thesis masters degree is usually two academic years- or four semesters. If you add in summer terms it may be possible to finish the degree in under two academic years- but I think it's likely credit-wise it would be closer to the standard 4 semesters.

    Getting an RN and a master's degree for someone who has no nursing experience takes a heck of a lot longer that this- so I guess I don't really know what you are referring to.

    -Jessica
  3. by   Gennaver
    Quote from future nurse jess
    I'm confused. At local community colleges anyone can get an RN in 4 semesters- 2 years of full time study. My understanding is that is pretty much standard and has been for years. For someone with a bachelor's degree who has already fulfilled some of the general requirements (English comp, algebra, psych. etc) It should be totally "do-able" to finish an ADN in three semesters- since you likely would only be taking the nursing classes and clinicals.

    If you are talking about getting a master's degree in three semesters- I don't know any programs direct entry or otherwise that grant an MSN in that amount of time. The standard for a non thesis masters degree is usually two academic years- or four semesters. If you add in summer terms it may be possible to finish the degree in under two academic years- but I think it's likely credit-wise it would be closer to the standard 4 semesters.

    Getting an RN and a master's degree for someone who has no nursing experience takes a heck of a lot longer that this- so I guess I don't really know what you are referring to.

    -Jessica
    Jess,
    Thanks for clarifying this. Yeah, a lot of the programs that I am looking at do not GRANT the msn in the full time 1.5 years, that is only the RN certificate portion. Yeah, what is so crazy about that? I mean, in order for me to COMPLETE my ADN all I have left is six classes, (spread over four semesters). Yet, to complete my RN graduate certificate I have 12 classes full time spread over four semesters.

    So, exactly where is the quickie portion?? No where I think, merely semantics. It seems like folks who do not already possess the four year degree seem to think that those of us who have completed this need to go back to the ADN to be legitimate.

    Which, if I do not get accepted into this other program I will. I think the six classes in the same time frame versus the 12, (which will be the difference between me earnign an Associates verus a graduate certificate) might be actually a little easier, less intense for certain.

    Also, as a degree that is below my currently earned one I will NOT be elidgible for any student loans or grants or anything yet, as a grad student, (because it post bacc, I would be able to apply for aid and loans.)

    Misinformation and what not.

    To the poster who is a professor at a non-nursing major graduate entry program...which area are you at? Do you really feel that there are people graduating from your program and passing the NCLEX and all without being able nurses?

    Gennaver
  4. by   smile123
    Quote from medsurgnurse
    Do NP schools really accept students who are not already an RN. My school required, RN, BSN and one year experience. Most of us are older experienced folks.
    The NP accelerated programs are for people who already have their bachelor degrees in another field. The first year is very intensive and they get a RN degree. Then the next 2 years is for the master's NP portion. Most of these applicants are older students with life experience, either in a paid position in the health care field or in a volunteer capacity.

    If you were to go into a straight master's program, yes, you would need a RN degree, preferably a BSN degree. I don't know about the 1 year experience, but it sounds like some programs to favor master's candidates who do have the year experience as a RN vs. someone who does not.

    I hope that straightens out the confusion. The RN is the cornerstone for any advanced practice degree for an NP.
  5. by   Gennaver
    Quote from CatskillNP
    I came to the site today and saw lot's of posts of wonderfully excited people interested in becoming NP's. The vast majority of the tones of education were: "I have the opportunity to become and NP through an advanced MSN program" or "I'm sales person at Target with a Bachelors in sociology, and with just one year of school I can become an RN then get my NP degree!!!"

    Sorry about this but....Being a nurse practitioner is more than just getting the degree. The job requires experience.

    I know a rant, but it makes me nuts to think that being an NP is anything less than the greatest honor innursing you can become.
    Hi again catskill RN,

    Apparently there are some endorsements and official recommendations on these graduate entry programs by the American Association of Colleges of Nurses.

    If you care to take a look:

    http://www.aacn.nche.edu/Publications/issues/Aug02.htm

    Thanks again for sharing how misguided some perceptions are about these programs!!

    Gennaver
  6. by   Jess RN
    Quote from sherrimrn
    My understanding is that direct entry MSN-NP is fairly new. I have no problems at all with anyone who has no RN experience wanting to be an NP, but I'll tell you... when I see nursing schools churn out ill-prepared new grads year and year (and it's gotten so much worse) I really do not trust institutions that want to do something like this. Whether it be Yale or Columbia or whatever.
    Yale's Graduate Entry Prespecialty in Nursing has been around since 1974. This is not a new thing.

    -Jess
  7. by   NYCRN16
    For those who have not even graduated nursing school yet and think that after 1 year they are going to feel confident enough to go out there on your own..You are going to get a reality check!

    I am coming up on my 2 year mark, and although I have learned a lot, there is still so much that I dont know. That first year goes by so fast, and when you get to it, you are surprised how much you still have to learn.

    I dont know about other parts of the country, but here in NY if you have one year of nursing experience and then get your NP, good luck finding a job in a hospital, because you will need it. You will find yourself working on the floor alongside with the staff RN's, not exactly what you bargained for.
  8. by   DidiRN
    What amazes me is most of the ones defending this aren't even in nursing school at all yet.



    Quote from imagin916
    For those who have not even graduated nursing school yet and think that after 1 year they are going to feel confident enough to go out there on your own..You are going to get a reality check!

    I am coming up on my 2 year mark, and although I have learned a lot, there is still so much that I dont know. That first year goes by so fast, and when you get to it, you are surprised how much you still have to learn.

    I dont know about other parts of the country, but here in NY if you have one year of nursing experience and then get your NP, good luck finding a job in a hospital, because you will need it. You will find yourself working on the floor alongside with the staff RN's, not exactly what you bargained for.
  9. by   DidiRN
    I stand corrected. However the article does state also that there has been a proliferation of these types of programs in the several years, and I wish we had the opportunity to talk with some grads of this program. We've already heard from some who have worked with them, and the consensus here is not good at all. But there are very few grads of this type of program today, it is not common at all. Based on my own personal experience in this field and seeing graduates of traditional ADN and BSN programs over all these years, I still believe this is a poor idea.

    Bottom line is that you choose to believe what you read from colleges who are trying to recruit applicants over experienced RN's and even some NP's who have posted concerns about this type of training in this thread. That's certainly your perogative, although I personally would tend to believe someone who is in the trenches so to speak than a website or school who are trying to attract (ie market) their nursing program to prospective students.


    Quote from future nurse jess
    Yale's Graduate Entry Prespecialty in Nursing has been around since 1974. This is not a new thing.

    -Jess
  10. by   Gennaver
    Quote from sherrimrn
    I stand corrected. However the article does state also that there has been a proliferation of these types of programs in the several years, and I wish we had the opportunity to talk with some grads of this program. We've already heard from some who have worked with them, and the consensus here is not good at all. But there are very few grads of this type of program today, it is not common at all. Based on my own personal experience in this field and seeing graduates of traditional ADN and BSN programs over all these years, I still believe this is a poor idea.

    Bottom line is that you choose to believe what you read from colleges who are trying to recruit applicants over experienced RN's and even some NP's who have posted concerns about this type of training in this thread. That's certainly your perogative, although I personally would tend to believe someone who is in the trenches so to speak than a website or school who are trying to attract (ie market) their nursing program to prospective students.
    Hi there,

    So, for my specific program I could either take the ADN program which would take six classes, (that I need to complete it) over four semester OR go the graduate RN certificate route which would take twelve classes ,(that I need to complete it) over four semesters.

    Where is the hype that you are talking about? Why does my RN graduate certificate cause so much worry whereas my ADN would not? What is the specific problem here? What, my six extra classes suddently make my RN status dubious and less valid? It is an RN certificate yet, if it was an accelerated, the only difference is that they give credit to prior courses earned in an undergrad degree, (so would you prefer that I re-take all my supplemental courses for the undergrad, you know, retake the english 101, 102, retake all my humanities and those other 130+ credit hours I've earned) or do you see how logical it is to transition into the final four semester towards completeion of the BSN? Where is your logic?

    Gennaver
  11. by   DidiRN
    Do you understand the difference between the responsibilities of an ADN and BSN as opposed to an NP? Isn't this what we are discussing? An accelerated NP program, correct?
    It doesn't matter on the non-nursing courses at all. I am concerned about the lack of preparation in nursing courses as an advanced nurse degree with little to no experience in the field. That is my concern.


    Quote from Gennaver
    Hi there,

    Why does my RN graduate certificate cause so much worry whereas my ADN would not?
    Gennaver
  12. by   Gennaver
    Quote from sherrimrn
    Do you understand the difference between the responsibilities of an ADN and BSN as opposed to an NP? Isn't this what we are discussing? An accelerated NP program, correct?
    It doesn't matter on the non-nursing courses at all. I am concerned about the lack of preparation in nursing courses as an advanced nurse degree with little to no experience in the field. That is my concern.
    Okay, now there is something to discuss, good.

    Firstly, the NP is not accelerated, only some BSN for non-nursing BA/BS degree holders. Many of these accelerated BSN programs do then allow direct entry to the NP program. Although, direct entry is somewhat of a misnomer because work experience as an RN is required prior to any specialty courses.

    In an accelerated BSN the only portion that is accelerated is that the accelerated students skip their summer vacation breaks.

    Yup, they take the exact same nursing portion classes. Theory, pharmeceuticals, physiology and everything else. Not accelerated on the nursing content. That is a misconception.

    For the graduate entry programs there are some that have the above mentioned accelerated BSN, (merely the same as the final two years of the traditional BSN programs, minus that luxurious summer vacation) and there are the graduate RN certificates, (which is what my program will have).

    The graduate certificate is like the final two years of a BSN program, (again, minus any summer breaks) four semesters straight through but, these are all 400 level classes, (not 500 like I wrongly posted before).

    So, Like I asked earlier, (know that you know the difference), why does my four semesesters of 12 intense 400 level classes versus the mere six classes at the community college worry you so?

    Oh, after those four semesters towards the RN certificate, then we are supposed to work for a minimum of a year before we can begin the Nursing Practitioner portion. NO, those are not accelerated, they are real, and in person, not online, classes with RNs from various backgrounds who earned their degree either from an ADN, Diploma, BSN or grad certificate. Wow, huh?

    Do you understand your misperception now?

    Also, once you have a BA/BS completed or an AS, (I know this) you are no longer elidgible for any financial aid or loans to take out to pay for a second one. Hence this is a very nice thing about the graduate RN certificate over the accelerated BSN. It is still the same content as a BSN versus the ADN yet, it is given in a graduate courseload and students are indeed able to finance their education through appropriate loans and financial assistance.
    Gennaver
    p.s. sheesh, the nursing stuff is not rushed, only the time frame excluding those wonderful summer vacations
    Last edit by Gennaver on Feb 10, '05 : Reason: to add that the NP is not accelerated and remove a potentially offensive word
  13. by   Jess RN
    Quote from sherrimrn
    Do you understand the difference between the responsibilities of an ADN and BSN as opposed to an NP? Isn't this what we are discussing?
    Sherri-

    What course of academic and clinical preparation would you suggest for someone with a bachelors in an unrelated field? Just curious- because I wonder if it is not all that far off from how some Direct Entry programs can be structured. Be specific if you would- how many years in school to be an RN- how many years practicing as an RN- how long should a masters program be and how many clinical hours should it contain to produce safe competant NPs?

    -Jess
    Last edit by Jess RN on Feb 10, '05

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