Learning H&P - Ugh!

pnoble198 · Jun 9, 2009

I wish I had some suggestions - but I am actually taking that class in the fall 2009 semester. I'm learning what to be prepared for from your message! Good luck!

MissDoodaw · Jun 10, 2009

It is awkward. But after your test practice at home until you find a systematic pattern that makes sense to you and then always do it that way. It gets easier. I am graduating in August and it is pretty natural, but I felt very awkward for the exams when we had to break it down into systems. Hang in there!

Trauma Columnist · Jun 10, 2009

I've been out of school 3 years and once you get a systematic approach down then you will be more comfortable. In my nephrology positions, I do a more focused assessment in this order: lung sounds, heart tone, abd exam, ankles/legs and their dialysis access. I ALWAYS stick to this routine just so I don't miss something. In my ER job its a little different: I look at the area where the problem is first (as long as the ABCs are fine of course), then I do a general exam: usually do ears unless isoloated injury, then neck, lungs, heart, abd, extremities.

Sheri FNP-C · Jun 10, 2009

Just think care plans...they seemed impossible at the beginning of nursing school and now we can practically do them in our sleep. I think the H&P is similar. My first physical exam course it took me 90 minutes to do a complete exam and a couple hours to write it up at the end of the semester! I thought it was hopeless. I just graduated and it really has become second nature in the last 3 years. My school had a required written format to use in every class. It was very helpful as it kept reinforcing this one way. Even if your school doesn't require it, I would find a format you like and use it consistently.

I 100% agree with the others though. You will find a routine that seems logical to you and stick with it so you don't forget anything. I always do lungs, heart, carotids, HEENT, lay the patient down and repeat heart, abdomen, pulses, extremities. Sit them back up and check reflexes. As I am writing this it seems like a very odd order, but it works well for me.

Also, remember that, again like nursing school, what is done in actual practice is quite different from what you will do in class. You do need to know all of the things you will learn but quite a bit are things you will only use when doing a exploring a specific complaint not a routine physical (such as position sense, sharp and light touch, etc.) So don't fret, you are learning the foundations and will adapt it to suit your practice. Give yourself time, it will come!

allnurses Guide · Jun 11, 2009

Thanks guys! That is encouraging. Guess I just hate not knowing what I'm doing! I think the problem is we just started, so every exam and write up is totally exhaustive, which seems overboard. I know it makes sense to learn the stuff, even if you don't do it all the time.

We had to write up a HEENT for a 19yo with acute otitis media.. took me like 4 hours to write everything you'd expect to see haha!! I'm sure I still missed stuff. I guess time will help.

pedspnp · Jun 11, 2009

Gilbert, I went through the same thing with my write ups, at first it took me forever, here is an outline that I used for all my case study's and writes up after a while I could get them done in 30 minutes or less hope this helps:redbeathe

Subjective

Client Information

Gender: Male

Age 19 months

Current medications: Augmentin, Albuterol nebs prn

Allergies: NKA

Chief Complaint: Here for follow up from ER for AOM

PMH: recurrent aom (third episode since November), asthma mild intermittent Immunizations UTD per chart.

FH: Lives at home with mother and grandparents.

Social History: attends day care 3 days a week. Exposed to second-hand smoke

HPI: Seen in emergency room 3 weeks ago for fever, and irritability. DX with BOM started on amoxicillin 400/mg/5 ml 1 ½ tsp bid.. Mom noticed increased cough past 2 days, and wheezing has not given Albuterol

OBJECTIVE:

VS: T. 99.9 P. 104. RR 28 Wt. 32 lbs

General: Somewhat Irritable infant sitting in mothers arms pulling at ears. Child smells strongly of tobacco smoke

Skin: Pink warm and dry, unremarkable. No redness or drainage noted,

HEENT: Head normocephalic, PERRLA, Right and left TM dull and erythemic with no visible landmarks, adenopathy noted. Serous yellow green nasal drainage bilaterally. Throat without redness. Anterior fontanel soft and flat

Lungs: Expiratory wheezes noted throughout , no retractions noted.

CV: HRR no murmur, radial/pedal pulses 2+, Capillary refill

GI/GU: Abdomen soft and flat, BS present x 4, no masses palpation. Testes descended bilaterally,

Musculosketal: FROM to all extremities.

Neurological: CN 2-12 grossly intact

Assessment:

Recurrent Otitis Media as confirmed by the characterized findings of the tympanic membrane. Recurrent otitis media: three or more separate episodes of AOM in a 6-month time span or four or more episodes in a 12-month time span

Differential Diagnosis:

Hyperemia of TM from crying or fever. Tm is bright, landmarks are evident, and mobility is normal

Eustachian tube obstruction: Causes transient pain, but TM is normal

Serous Otitis: TM is not inflamed and will not move inward with with positive pressure but may move outward wit negative pressure.

External Otitis: Diffuse inflammation of ear canal with or without exudates; pain on movement of pinna.

Asthma mild intermittent; Diagnosis clinical depending on history and exam

Differential Diagnosis:

Bronchiolitis: Frequently seen in children up to age 2 years. Temperature is variable, paroxysmal cough, dyspnea, tachypnea, shallow respirations, and diminished breath sounds.

Plan: Nebulized Xophenex 0.63% in office

Omnicef 125mg/5ml 4 ml bid x 10 days

Albuterol Neb treatments QID

Tylenol 160/5 11/4 tsp every 4-6 hours for fever or discomfort.

Note: Child had decreased wheezing after one treatment in office, good aeration noted.

F/U in office 72 hours or sooner for asthma

F/u in 3 weeks for OM

Call if child cannot tolerate medicine or no improvement in 48 hours.

Education:

Refrain from putting child to bed with bottle

Refrain from smoking around child

OTC cough and cold medicines are not recommended in children under age of 6

Avoid allergens (dust, cat dander, aerosols etc.)

Improvement should be noted in 24 to 48 hours.

Encourage fluids, offer in small amounts

This was an appropriate patient; I did do a lot of teaching. This mom denied that any one was smoking around the child. I commented that he smelled of cigarette smoke and that was why I had asked about it. The mom admitted that her parents smoked in the house and that since she lived with them that there was nothing she could do about it. That is a tough situation since the grandparent's baby-sit when mom is at work. During the day she can take him out or keep him in his or her room, but that is not an optimal option all the time as the child has to eat. I did talk to her about not putting child down for naps and sleep with a bottle, the increase in ear infections and tooth decay.

Referral: Pediatric ENT for myringotomy consultation

Hendley JO. Otitis media. New England Journal of Medicine October 10, 2002;347:1169-74.

Ducharme FM et al. Preemptive use of high-dose fluticasone for virus-induced wheezing in young children. N Engl J Med 2009 Jan 22; 360:339.

allnurses Guide · Jun 12, 2009

np2b, thank you so much - that's great!

JDCitizen · Jun 12, 2009

- If I am doing a true physical I start at the head and work my way down.

- If I am doing a focused exam I will do a limited/cursory exam of other systems (ABCs / LOC) etc..

With my patient population I see a lot of advanced age folks and a good many mental health patients even my SOAP notes I almost always ask about BMs/urination and I alway chart orientation (ie A&0x4) and record gait....

So just how do they make you do: inspection/auscultation/palpation/percussion? During the exam or write up?

Are these general H&Ps or focused H&Ps?

Do you have access to any H&Ps? The big thing about doing exams is finding a routine and sticking with it.

Also must add the routine is much harder with someone peeking over your shoulder grading you :-)

Physical assessment can be a tough class: As tough as the professor wants to make it.

np2b? Great write up.....

I admit I had years and years of reading H&Ps. Until I had to write them myself I found out practice and more practice is the only way. You might hate it now but later on you will give a little nod to your professors for sticking it to you.

Hmmm this topic brought back so many memories....... :uhoh3:

allnurses Guide · Jun 13, 2009

Haha thanks. At the moment, we are learning system by system, practising in lab, then have to write up a normal and a variant for that system. They have a sheet split into inspection/palpation/percussion/auscultation that you have to fill in. Just feels awkward, because when you do the exam, you do everything for the one system, you don't stop to split into IPPA. Makes more sense to me to say Head, Eyes, Ears, Nose, Throat with all the data together etc.

Anyhow, I'm sure it will improve, although my lab professor is kind of a jerk. At least we're almost to cardiopulmonary, which is my thing!!

VivaRN · Jun 13, 2009

You know, I think that is more it - that you have to split it up, or say it out loud, or go system by system before putting it all together. In "real life" you are perhaps chatting with the patient and just doing your thing. That is actually how I got over being nervous about our final head to toe in front of my instructor - pretended I was with a patient instead of a fellow student, and it came a lot more naturally.

I also do a more general exam (heart, lungs minimum) on a stable patient, and then more focused if there's a problem/comorbidity. Since it's HIV there are some things I almost always do, like feeling lymph nodes and looking in the mouth (for thrush). At first I would forget to do some things, but over time it's become smoother through repetition and practice.

Another thing I thought was interesting about assessment is that very few people actually do all the convoluted things we learned. Though I appreciate having it in my tool box. You will probably be a master with CV & pulmonary!

carachel2 · Jun 14, 2009

I think this is a great example of how as nurses we totally think we can do the MD job and how sometimes it looks so easy. I mean, after all, they look the patient over and spout off the orders and go behind the desk while we are left behind to do "all the work." But the detail in which they cover things and the organized, systematic assessment is definitely a different procedure and one that has to be respected. It takes YEARS, in my opinion, to get this down right.