Anyone heard of any NP to MD programs?

Caroline32669 · Aug 12, 2007

Oceania med is in Samoa and you do not need to take the MCAT if you have had medical experience. Ross University has a decent reputation and there are one or two other Carribbean schools that I can't remember the name of.

The nursing program you are thinking of gives nurses a clinical degree call the Doctor of Nurse Practice (DNP). You can choose your focus whether it be acute care, family practice or education. It is NOT intended to make medical doctors out of nurse practitioners. Nursing has a completly different model. I think it is the result of billing problems. Nurse practitioners cannot bill full price because they are not doctors even when they perform the same service as a medical doctor. It is hopeful that this degree will help obtain full billing and educate nurses a bit more. At least that is what I think.

veritas · Oct 3, 2007

Oceania med is in Samoa and you do not need to take the MCAT if you have had medical experience... The nursing program you are thinking of gives nurses a clinical degree call the Doctor of Nurse Practice (DNP). You can choose your focus whether it be acute care, family practice or education. It is NOT intended to make medical doctors out of nurse practitioners. Nursing has a completly different model.

anyone who wants to do MD should join the bottom of the pile and start new. seriously people, do you want to go to a doctor who did not pass mcat or interviews? do you want a doctor who took shortcuts to get into med school? i don't think so! the mcat and interviews and classes are there for extremely good reasons. those schools advertised as no mcat required, blarblarblar are not going to get you the residency required in any country, and no residency = no job = not md = back to wherever you came from or started from. think about it! :monkeydance:

cgfnp · Oct 3, 2007

anyone who wants to do MD should join the bottom of the pile and start new. seriously people, do you want to go to a doctor who did not pass mcat or interviews? do you want a doctor who took shortcuts to get into med school? i don't think so! the mcat and interviews and classes are there for extremely good reasons. those schools advertised as no mcat required, blarblarblar are not going to get you the residency required in any country, and no residency = no job = not md = back to wherever you came from or started from. think about it! :monkeydance:

This is the school of thought of the general opposition to any change such as a bridge program for midlevels. It makes sense to me, however, in a growing shortage of fam docs... why not create a bridge program that includes all the essential sciences and cuts way down on all the non-primary care exposure? It COULD be condensed, it COULD work well and it COULD produce real, competent doctors for the primary care field. Hell, you could even require rural health practice for one of these "short-cut" doctors.

"sure it makes sense to you because you are a np" states the med student. I personally hope to be so far away from medicine in any form by then it won't matter. I hate it.

"but bridging is a short cut and that's not fair because that's not how I did it" states the med student. 4 yrs bach, min 1 yr experience, 2 yrs grad school, for a total of 7 yrs when you want to begin your likely 2 yr bridge program... hardly a shortcut.

"but your 7 yrs isn't as hard as ours" Who cares?

This attitude of my way or no way is costing this country a lot of lives. That's right, many people will die simply because a bridge program idea or other open minded ideas to increase the primary care doc work force will continue to be shot down because the opposition ultimately cares more for themselves than the patients. "but patient safety is what we're concerned with" No, you're not. If the number one killer is heard disease, and the way to prevent that is the simple task of lower lipids, blood pressure, controlling diabetes, and promoting heart healthy behaviors, that even us lowly midlevels can do with our eyes closed then it's easy to see that even a MD that was bridged would satisfy the laws to open their own clinic and receive the meager reimbursements to make a practice work. This would result in more patients seen, and therefore more risk factors treated, resulting in lower mortality and morbidity in this country.

At least now you can admit that you'd rather more people die than be open minded to an alternative method of becoming a primary care MD.

n_g · Oct 3, 2007

Med schools are not starving for students. If the country needs more docs, the schools let in more students...and they start from the beginning. The AAMC has expanded enrollment by 20% in the last few years. The docs can giveth and taketh from ye.

cgfnp · Oct 3, 2007

Med schools are not starving for students. If the country needs more docs, the schools let in more students...and they start from the beginning. The AAMC has expanded enrollment by 20% in the last few years. The docs can giveth and taketh from ye.

Compared to yrs ago, they most certainly are starving for students. And so are fam practice residencies. Keep thinking you are on par with God as your last sentence suggests and remember all those rural nobodies that will die without proper primary care because there are no docs to replace the retiring ones. This isn't a hypothetical situation, either. It's happening right here right now.

You can try to convince God when you meet him... because you can't convince me or anyone else that isn't a traditional med student/grad.

Or you could just give us NPs complete and total autonomy to open our own rural health clinics without having to pay some doc to sign off. That would be also worse for the patient although I think it would be fine in most cases. Bet you'd rather pick the first option if you were forced to pick one, further strengthening the argument that it's not about the patients benefit at all.

happydays352 · Oct 3, 2007

In some states like Oregon (obviously where I live) NP's do have autonomy much like you describe. It's just much harder to get paid (at least that's my basic understanding).

I chose to switch from pre-med to nursing, I would never have made this choice if not for the laws in OR concerning NPs.

Maybe this model could be expanded and more NP's would be content with their practice instead of looking to medical school. :) Just a thought.

veritas · Oct 4, 2007

the med system is eliteist. and they are not starving for students. even with the mcat and interviews and high GPA required, there is still about 25 to 50 applicants per 1 med school place. so in fact, only about 20% of people who apply to med school can get in. the med program has already down sized a lot to accommodate the "shortage" of docs. it used to be 8 years, and got reduced to 6 years and now you can do it in 3 or 4 years. if it gets anymore cut down, i m not sure how people will fit in all they need to learn. a nursing degree is 3 or 4 years. if med is cut any less than nursing, how will the docs fit all they need to learn into that time? there is A LOT more to learn in med than in nursing! as it is, med students are struggling to fit in everything they need to know in the current 3 or 4 years program. and in the end, they are not as confident as they could be if the program was longer.

veritas · Oct 4, 2007

to solve the shortage of doc problem, NPs should be given more power/autonomy. they can't just simply let in more students. plus it costs much more to train a doc than a nurse. they have started to let in more med places in recent years. many programs have expanded places by about 100 to 200 extra spots. they have to maintain the bottleneck in med. otherwise, it could become like brazil, where doctors and nurses are paid the same. who wants to slog to become a doc then if they get paid the same as nurses? and who will work as hard? where will the standard and quality go?

core0 · Oct 4, 2007

the med system is eliteist. and they are not starving for students. even with the mcat and interviews and high GPA required, there is still about 25 to 50 applicants per 1 med school place. so in fact, only about 20% of people who apply to med school can get in. the med program has already down sized a lot to accommodate the "shortage" of docs. it used to be 8 years, and got reduced to 6 years and now you can do it in 3 or 4 years. if it gets anymore cut down, i m not sure how people will fit in all they need to learn. a nursing degree is 3 or 4 years. if med is cut any less than nursing, how will the docs fit all they need to learn into that time? there is A LOT more to learn in med than in nursing! as it is, med students are struggling to fit in everything they need to know in the current 3 or 4 years program. and in the end, they are not as confident as they could be if the program was longer.

I think that you need to check your facts. 44% of med school applicants get in. It is over 50% if you discount re-applicants. This also does not include DO programs or overseas schools. Also I am not sure where you got that med school had been shortened. It has been approximately four years since the Flexner report came out. It does require a bachelors (usually) prior to med school but that isn't part of med school.

There really isn't a shortage of physicians. There is a geographical distribution problem and a specialty distribution problem. The residency system is used to keep the number of specialists relatively low which keeps specialty salary relatively high. There are more applicants for specialty positions than positions. On the other hand there are unfilled family practice, internal medicine and peds spots every year.

Physicians are ceding the primary care market which can lead to job opportunities but the reason that they are ceding the market is that the reimbursement is low and the practice expenses are high. NPPs are following this model and moving increasingly into specialty care which still leaves a shortage or primary care providers whichever way you cut it.

David Carpenter, PA-C

caldje · Oct 5, 2007

David is right.

Also, giving NPs more autonomy will not come close to solving the problem. NPs and PAs already have PLENTY of autonomy to function as primary care providers in the vast majority of states. What more autonomy do you want? Having a consulting/supervising physician is necessary, and restrictions on prescription authority is a non issue if you are practicing family practice. The problem is, increasing autonomy does not change the distribution of NPPs just like David described. In fact, increasing autonomy of NPPs may WOSRTEN the shortage because they will also have the legislative allowances that would permit them to earn more in specialties. The answer is increased primary care reimbursement and decreased specialty reimbursement. A shave biopsy by a FP MD pays less than one done by a derm MD. That does not make sense.

And, giving NPs that authority won't help because NPs are ALREADY complaining they dont get reimbursed the same as physicians. Well, if NPs want to reimbursed the same as physicians, where is the real cost savings here? Why give NPs more authority? It won't help the system at all.

cgfnp · Oct 5, 2007

David is right.
Also, giving NPs more autonomy will not come close to solving the problem. NPs and PAs already have PLENTY of autonomy to function as primary care providers in the vast majority of states. What more autonomy do you want?
Let's see... more autonomy, how about complete so I don't have to have an even higher overhead and startup expense to open a new clinic in a rural place that doesn't have one. Then I see around 5000 people a year who likely wouldn't have seen anyone had a provider not come to their town. Then, I can consult the physicians I refer to regularly as needed, just like I do now.

Having a consulting/supervising physician is necessary, and restrictions on prescription authority is a non issue if you are practicing family practice. The problem is, increasing autonomy does not change the distribution of NPPs just like David described. In fact, increasing autonomy of NPPs may WOSRTEN the shortage because they will also have the legislative allowances that would permit them to earn more in specialties.
Yeah, go to one of the completely autonomous states and find a NP who is independently practicing orthopedic surgery.

And, giving NPs that authority won't help because NPs are ALREADY complaining they dont get reimbursed the same as physicians. Well, if NPs want to reimbursed the same as physicians, where is the real cost savings here? Why give NPs more authority? It won't help the system at all.
Yeah, I want to get paid family docs wages too for the same services. How dare I... Where's the savings? How about the miles the rural folks have to drive if they don't have a clinic in their town? How about the ERs who have about 70% of their patients that belong in a clinic where the bill to us taxpayers is about 10% the cost. Instead their in the EDs because they can't get into their doctor (or more appropriately the system has led them there like sheep).

RNCENCCRNNREMTP · Oct 5, 2007

A girl I go to school with said that there is a school in Missouri that has a bridge program for NPs to become MDs.
Have any of you heard of a program like this??
Thanks!
Kitty

Yes, it is called medical school.