The "bully" nurse

Daytonite, BSN, RN · Oct 6, 2005

. . .a good nurse does not necessarily make a good manager and I think this is where frustration and bullying and intimidation come in. Just as new nurses need precepting and mentoring, new nurse managers should also be given guidance, preceptoring, and mentoring to become good managers. They just don't become one overnight. Another thing...it seems that nurses have long wanted to be treated more professionaly than they have been. If we are always cat fighting, bitching, whining, and moaning, eating our young, and generally acting like children, and other professionals see this behavior, then how can we ever expect to be treated and recognized as professionals?

Very good points! I don't want to start the ADN/BSN controversy, but I have to say that in my BSN program we got way more communication, psychology and leadership study and training than I ever had in my ADN program. And, if I'm not mistaken the MSN get tons more of it. This is, I think, part of the case for going on to getting a BSN. Just a consideration for some of you considering it. Supervision and management is a skill that can be taught, not necessarily something you have a knack for. Nursing schools just can't provide clinical experience with these skills and it is left to each individual to seek out experiences and master the various techniques. There are a great many people who think that once formal classes are ended they are done with school (and learning) and just want to get on with the earning money part. That's sad! I do believe that many of these bad supervisors and preceptors come under that category.

Please don't let the two bad experiences you've had put you off to nursing. I am a big believer that everything happens for a reason. Perhaps, in your case, it is to make you sensitive to bullying behaviors and to motivate you to make some kind of changes, in your own way. The military trains it's leaders, so you have somewhat of an advantage when it comes to becoming a supervisor and leader yourself. Try again. Sometimes the third time is the charm. Try a larger hospital if you were in a smallar one, or even a teaching hospital with resident doctors (now there's a experience in itself). As you become skilled at nursing procedures and time management, things do get so much better. I had to quit two nursing jobs as a new graduate because of being lied to (by the DON) and bullying by LPNs at a LTC of all things! before I finally found a job that was comfortable. After 30 years of experience I can tell you that I sure know how to handle both those situations now. It really helps to start on a hospital unit that is not as fast paced as the ICUs, ERs or stepdown units. Your education is never a waste. Please don't let a handful of bullies kill your hopes of being a nurse. There is a place for you out there and when you becomed seasoned then you need to step forward and take positions where you can put a stop to the kind of behavior you experienced.

I was also thinking about intern and resident doctors. For many, many years they were bullied by the physicians who were supposed to be teaching them in their clinical rotations. New graduate doctors (interns and residents) are in much the same situation as new graduate nurses. They come out of school having a lot of knowledge, but no practical experience. The purpose of their internships and residencies is to get that clinical experience. In the recent years, some of the ones who were victims of the bullying, intimidation, and abuse led movements to curtail some of this. You see how some states have restricted the total number of clinical hours residents can work. I've also been seeing more clinical supervisors of the residents who were actually nice! I suspect that bullying also goes on in other highly educated technical professions as well. It's because it's a powerful psychological game that's going on. As people start to see these psychological games for what they are then action can be taken, but you can't do that from the sidelines. You've got to be in the trenches.

Gennaver, MSN · Oct 6, 2005

Very good points! I...
There is a place for you out there and when you becomed seasoned then you need to step forward and take positions where you can put a stop to the kind of behavior you experienced.
.....
It's because it's a powerful psychological game that's going on. As people start to see these psychological games for what they are then action can be taken, but you can't do that from the sidelines. You've got to be in the trenches.

Hello,

More good information about stepping forward once you have grown through a 'bullying' experience.

The saying about absolute power, corrupting absolutely might fit here too.

I am trying to find a righteous middle between preventing/stopping or allowing/tolerating bullying and while respecting the 'bullyer's' human/sensative side. No doubt the bullies are compensating for their own lonely and low self-esteem and I want to prevent bullying but do not want to devestate someone's sense of self either. That is tricky though. I guess that being firm is the only way to go about it, not insulting, no misunderstanding, just direct in refusal to be a doormat or whipping toy.

Gennaver

SoulShine75 · Oct 6, 2005

I have to disagree with the first part of this post. First of all I am an older nurse (30 years) and have many friends who are also older nurses by definition of experience. I don't test and question new grads that I've been precepting. I try to take them in hand and guide them, impart to them some of the wisdom I've learned in the past 30 years to help make their way a little easier. The poster is right about bullies being intimidating. However, they come in all shapes, sizes, genders, ages and years of (in)experience. I speak from the experience of having been a supervisor and nurse manager who saw this kind of behavior and also experienced it over the years. A CNA or a unit secretary can be a bully just as well as an RN. You are correct that bullys can ignore you, ask endless intimidating questions and complain about your performance, but these are only outward manifestations of the true heart of this beast who really has an ulterior motive of seeing herself or himself as being better than everybody else. Bullys are inherently mean, negative people who want to have power over everyone else and will not stop at using these kinds of nasty little behaviors to accomplish this. Bullys can be found in all walks of life, not just nursing.

I agree. My mother in law is one. :chuckle :chuckle :chuckle

rhinojogger · Oct 6, 2005

Very good points! I don't want to start the ADN/BSN controversy, but I have to say that in my BSN program we got way more communication, psychology and leadership study and training than I ever had in my ADN program. And, if I'm not mistaken the MSN get tons more of it.
Thanks Daytonite for your comments and encouragement. I thought I would take a little time off from the bullies and work on my BSN. I agree with you that we can never have enough education. I have about a year to go on that. Then I may jump back in and go again. Either that or try to get a little higher up the food chain by getting my PA or NP.

Nancy428 · Oct 7, 2005

Hi, I was wondering if people could help me with a project that I was working on for one of my classes. We have heard nurses complaining about being "bullied" but I'm not sure what that means to different nurses. So, in your oppion, what makes a "bully nurse?"

I'm being bullied right now at work.I just started a new job at a hospital,on a med/surg floor,and we have 2 bully nurses (CNA's).And all they do is walk around and talk about everyone all day..it's funny....how do they get their work done if all they do is walk around all day?But anyways,the nurse manager doesnt do anything about them"because their job performance is so good".....I went to her and reported them,but that's the answer I got.So,what do you do?I just try and do my work and ignore all the gossip,but it is very hard,especially when you are new.I can't just quit my job,I need the money,and I am getting paid double than what I was at my last job.I just think it's up to the nurse managers to do something about it,instead of being afraid of their employees.

HMtravelRN · Oct 7, 2005

Hmmm. Lots of things come to mind... Passive-aggressives, antisocials, narcissists,

impulse control disorders, and borderline personalities, are all part of what comes to mind. Perhaps there should be a classification for bully nurses in the DSM-IV. lol

Daytonite, BSN, RN · Oct 8, 2005

Throughout the various classes you will be taking for your BSN pick the brains of your instructors and professors on strategies to deal with the kind of bullying behavior you experienced. These are problems of leadership as well as interpersonal behavior. As a BSN it is very likely that you will eventually find yourself in a management or supervision position and will have to deal with this kind of problem (more than once, I'm sure!).

anonymurse · Oct 8, 2005

Nurses tend to be very competitive with one another

The blessings of being in a shortage field we all know well. The drawback is that in a fight where any warm body will do, all, regardless of abilities, in some way are leveled, and let's face it, nursing hours are a commodity. And people feel, well, ignored as people, which is something I suppose everyone needs to get over whatever their line of work, 'cause if we were supposed to have our ego needs met by the workplace, we'd be the ones doing the paying.

MamaTheNurse, BSN, RN · Oct 8, 2005

in our unit, we get bullied by the HUC's (unit clerks) - I've seen nurses almost have to grovel to get orders entered into the computer - I've also seen nursing staff jump to answer the phone that's not getting answered because the HUC is on the phone herself, talking loud enough for us to all know that it is a personal call...

just recently, I decided that I'm not going to take it anymore - I'll be professional and polite but no more butt-kissing - some of these people are getting dangerous - here's the story:

the physician wrote: Nitroprusside drip to keep systolic BP

Neosynephrine drip to keep systolic BP >110

one of our snottiest HUC's who is taking all sorts of hormones in preparation for in vitro pregnancy transcribed the order as such: Nitro drip to keep systolic BP

Neo drip to keep systolic BP >110

now, I've only been in ICU for 7 months but I know that "Nitro" is not the abbreviation for "Nitroprusside" - I took the coward's way out and went to our manager who didn't formally write her up but did address it. The HUC confronted me and kept saying "why didn't you just tell me I made a mistake"? She wouldn't answer my question "why didn't you just write exactly what the doctor wrote?" but kept chewing me out. OK, I should have talked to her before going to the manager (which was going to happen anyway) but I think it's pretty bad that 1) she is so crabby that I was afraid to approach her (she bit my head off one time when I was in orientation) and 2) a unit clerk feels that they can take it upon themselves to edit a physician's order for vasoactive drugs - incorrectly, I might add. This was also allowed to happen because of a weakness in our system - no one should have to be transcribing medication orders when we have a computerized MAR system so I discussed it with our manager and I'm utilizing the PI program we use to try to change this practice.

sorry this was so long but I just wanted to show that other people in a unit can be bullies too............

rhinojogger · Oct 8, 2005

Throughout the various classes you will be taking for your BSN pick the brains of your instructors and professors on strategies to deal with the kind of bullying behavior you experienced. These are problems of leadership as well as interpersonal behavior. As a BSN it is very likely that you will eventually find yourself in a management or supervision position and will have to deal with this kind of problem (more than once, I'm sure!).

Sounds like good advice! Thanks again for your thoughts.

Bill (rhinojogger)

anonymurse · Oct 8, 2005

the physician wrote: Nitroprusside drip to keep systolic BP
Neosynephrine drip to keep systolic BP >110
one of our snottiest HUC's who is a walking b!tch right now because she is taking all sorts of hormones in preparation for in vitro pregnancy transcribed the order as such: Nitro drip to keep systolic BP
Neo drip to keep systolic BP >110

Sorry I didn't understand; where did the physician write what he wrote, and where did the unit secretary write what she wrote?

Gennaver, MSN · Oct 8, 2005

in our unit, we get bullied by the HUC's (unit clerks) - I've seen nurses almost have to grovel to get orders entered into the computer - ...- I took the coward's way out and went to our manager who didn't formally write her up but did address it.
.......

Hello MamaTheNurse,

I have also been in situations where a CNA ran the entire unit due to her personality and issues, (obviously everyone else thought that nice people just tolerate that toddler behavior). Then I transferred after a year or so to a different department with a great crew on a midnight shift, really great crew. However, the day staff had a cluster of big bullies, truly amazing, shouting and loud talking about what 'you' will do, (so much loud talking that in the six or so months there the staff meetings were loaded with reports and requests for 'unanymous' staff to keep it quiet. Of course, the loudmouth bullies never thought it was meant for them.

After I transferred from there to another department which I really loved and felt I found my clinical niche, there was another bully. This one was very emotionally devestating to me, I thank her now because she will forever be the last bully that I gave the 'authority' to be so mean.

From her I discovered that you cannot relate to a bully as if they were a normal person, they are on a power trip, not on a cooperation trip. They are missing something fundamental.

On my clinical review from the manager everything was great until I read the conclusion where the manager had written something like, "must learn to deal effectively with others" I realized that managers do not want to break up bullying, that it is our responsibility to nip that in the bud.

When I student taught a kindergarten class and saw a child misbehaving I would firmly and respectfully point out the proper behavior without insulting them. I consider bullies to be in this same class, they are not mature, they are not considerate or empathetic, their world is all about them, either by choice or chance they do not know any better.

I have ignored them in the past and found that is not really very good either because the mess the create talking behind your back is frustration.

Unemotional, firm directeness immediately upon a 'tactic' seems like the way to go and then dropping the issue to avoid humoring them, I think now, (any other advice).

Gennaver