Vent thread... when to send a pt out

Specialties Geriatric

Published

I've been at an LTC facility for 3 months now. One thing is clear at my facility: take caution before sending residents out to the hospital. I was always taught as far as LTC goes, especially as a newer nurse, "when in doubt, send them out." At my facility, the DON seems to be overly concerned with the # of Medicare patients and how it affects the total reimbursement from Medicare, i.e. $$$, folks.

Anywho, I had a 65 yo resident with hx of cva, afib, dvt, esrd and hypertension. Due to the cva, she has dysphasia and can't communicate well. It's apparent to everyone that she's "with it" and understand's what's going on around her but her speech is distorted. She's usually always "talking" though. This morning at 0500, in the middle of my medpass, the CNA's grab me and tell me she's lethargic and not responding as usual. I go in and sure enough she's very lethargic and not responding verbally at all. She's able to follow my commands and squeeze my hands, but very weakly. She couldn't lift her arms at all. Her eyes occasionally rolled in the back of her head and she couldn't keep them open for long. She had a fixed stare at times, so I thought maybe she was having a cva. Her skin was cold. Her bp was 139/77, when her SBP is usually 80-100. Her o2 sat was 82%. I put her on 2L. Her bs was 114, no hx of DM. After I put her on 2l, I wasn't able to get a pulse ox reading.

I grabbed the other nurse who was working and has years of experience and she agreed that she didn't look well.

I sent her out and 20 mins later the ER Nurse calls me with an attitude saying she's treated this patient 3x before and this is her baseline. I calmly told her she's been a patient of mine for 3 months and this is definitely not her baseline. The woman argued with me that because of her hx of cva she is completely nonverbal and doesn't speak. I explained to her she does speak, although incomprehensibly...

The patient was admitted for urosepsis.

My DON said I did a good job assessing, but why didn't I think of giving her a nebulizer treatment? To my knowledge, the resident has never had respiratory issues. She basically told me I should've done more to try and keep the resident there because it looks bad when the hospital is audited by Medicare for readmissions.

I just leave work sometimes feeling horrible. I try to put my patients first and care for them as I would my family. I don't have all the insight and years of critical care experience that my DON has. If that was my grandmother lying in the bed, I would definitely call 911 after doing all I knew to do and still feeling something wasn't right. We're not even able to call the doctor at night, we text him. And it usually takes him eons to respond back. The DON almost expects perfection. If something would have happened to the resident, I would've been blamed. Can't win for trying at this place! I managed to get all of my paperwork done, call the family, finish my med pass, medicate a seizing patient and deal with some low blood sugars and all she could point out were the things I missed this morning!!

Ugh :/ Just venting...

Specializes in LTC, home health, critical care, pulmonary nursing.

Sounds like your DON is going to find herself in some pretty hot water eventually. With an attitude like that, something's going to come back and bite her in the butt.

Specializes in Med/Surg/Tele/Onc.
DNH does not mean do not treat.

The nurse acted appropriatly IMHO-she reported her findings to the physician and he gave the order to send her out.

This was in reference to the 101 lady who was kept comfortable at the facility not the OP (as indicated by my quotes of the previous post.) DNH means do not hospitalize and palliative patients will often, but not always, have this order.

Specializes in LTC and School Health.

You did a fantanstic Job! I've worked LTC and ICU and I would have done the same thing. Any change in mental status that is not baseline and has a new onset audits a trip to the ED IMO.

PCU will be great for you!

Specializes in LTC and School Health.

My old DON used to blame me for sending residents out for "no reason" I'd always send them out when in doubt. Sometimes they would come back right away and sometimes they'll be admitted to ICU or the floor. However, can never be too cautious.

Just want to say that you rocked that one! I wouldn't administer neb tx without an order, especially if there was no reason to.

I get sass from our ED all the time. They see an old person at the jumping off point who's having old-person problems and think it's a waste of their time and skills. Not saying it's all EDs, just the one we use. I think they're super burned out on drug seekers and people using the ED for primary care, that unless you're spurting blood from some hole in your body, they'll roll their eyes and point to the waiting room. I've had nurse-friends who worked in the ED say as much.

Anyway, you did fine. Pay lip service to your DON. Her job is to watch the bottom line. "Yes, DON, I'll remember that for next time. But this is the reason why blah blah blah. I didn't want their family to call the state on us!" Mention "The State" and your DON will be quiet. Same with giving meds without orders. Mention that it's illegal. What's she going to say? "So, I know it's illegal, do it anyway?" Probably not. If she does, RUN.

Specializes in Emergency, Telemetry, Transplant.
my don actually encourages us to give meds without an md order. she criticized a new nurse, asking her what she would do in an emergency if she wasn't able to get an md. her expectations are that we act first and get an md order later.

Huh?? On AN there are all sorts of things for which nurses think they can lose their license. Well, practicing medicine without a medical license is something for which you can actually lose your license. Chart your attempts to try to contact the doctor--be specific: when you called, how you tried to reach him/her (answering service, cell phone, etc.). But don't just give a med and look for an order later. If it is a bad outcome, there is a good chance the doctor and your DON will hang you out in the wind.

Another OH SO FAMILIAR vent. You did YOUR best, you went to another "more experienced nurse" for an opinion, then advocated for your patient. You did exactly what was right for the situation. I have been a LTC RN for going on 7 years now. We nurses who see these patients and interact with them WAY MORE than any hospital nurse; sometimes we must stand our ground!! You will learn as you go. You will develope a keen instinct. Before you know it you will know without a shadow of doubt. Just when to use your nursing "judgement", assessment and clinical skills in order to be able to stablize your patient and when HOLY CRAP Ms. Debbie D. Patient is a code status CPR, call the ambulance stat! For the most part, I am sure the DON does not mean anything personaly towards you. She is just doing her job. Heads in the beds = job security. Also the longer you work there the more Admin. will trust you. There are ALOT of nurses who seem to loose their head and want to send, send, SEND 'em out before trying other options first (in appropeiate situations). I have been in your shoes, seems like yesterday. You are gonna be just fine. Just don't take it personal! Of course your DON wants what is best for your patient, but is also heavily involved with the business end of the facility too. Best of luck to you always:nurse:

WoW pppp that's nuts!

Yep Mappers!! With the hospitals keeping patient's for less and less time. They come to us with a very high acuity alot of the time. I mean a procedure that used to land a patient in the hospital for let's say a week. Now they are being discharged from the hospital in 2-3 days. Too sick to go home we get them **shakes head**

Huh?? On AN there are all sorts of things for which nurses think they can lose their license. Well, practicing medicine without a medical license is something for which you can actually lose your license. Chart your attempts to try to contact the doctor--be specific: when you called, how you tried to reach him/her (answering service, cell phone, etc.). But don't just give a med and look for an order later. If it is a bad outcome, there is a good chance the doctor and your DON will hang you out in the wind.
Yep.. I haven't given anything to date without an order here but it is what is expected in an emergency here, especially at night when the doctor is almost always not readily available. During the day, IV's have been started, D5, fluids, neb's etc have been given w/o an order. We should really have a Dr oncall here..
did you call ahead to give report to the ER? I realize that it sounds like this person was somewhat familiar to this ER, but it is always helpful to hear the the facility when they send a resident in--why are they coming? How are they different from their baseline? What interventions did you perform before they left? Etc. As I said, if you did not call it does not excuse the ER nurse, but, speaking from experience, it can be helpful to get that call.

ALWAYS call the receiving facility when you send a patient ANYWHERE. (in any setting...this includes ER nurses sending patients back)

I am an old ER nurse, and it chapped my hide when I didn't get a call when patients came from any another medical facility.

I teach nursing, and hammer this point home to my students. It's just plain rude not to call, and bad outcomes will happen when we don't share clinical (and any other pertinent) info.

A lack of communication is the worst thing we can do for our patients!

And send as much paperwork as you think is appropriate (H&P, MAR, nurses' notes, face sheet)

And seeing that your pt ended up in the ICU, you made the correct call to send, period.

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