What do you think of this statement?

fergus51 · Jan 10, 2003

LOL! I don't think a messiah would be a bad thing, but it actually wasn't what I was thinking of:)

I just think the idea that men would have made nursing more respected is a bunch of monday morning quarterbacking. And I think the argument that there just aren't enough of them is very convenient. If nursing still has problems when it is 50% male we would probably say there STILL aren't enough men yet, we need 75%.

I am perfectly willing to admit that I could be completely wrong in this, but I still think that nurses being 50% men isn't going to make a difference, because in the end men are just individuals with their own needs, same as women. And no matter how many of them there are, they can still leave and find those opportunities outside of nursing. The path of least resistance won't disapear.

We need nurses that are politically active, that are willing to organize as a group and fight for what they want, male or female. Well, till that day I will just hope for a messiah;)

Glad2behere · Jan 10, 2003

I am enjoying this Fergus, what a treat! Your being perfectly willingly is enough for me ! But to an extent what I said is true.

Men are just now starting to realize that nursing isn't such a bad deal in comparison to truck driving or bricklaying or carpentry work. I will also give credit to ladies for having advanced nursing so nobly, I owe them. I also think however, that women being treated badly kept the numbers of women down so that market forces have had a lot of effect on nursing and some of those advances thus yielded are events of supply and demand economics.

In this profession, speaking for myself only, there is an inherent subserviant boundary defined by the role of a nurse. I have a hard time handling that, and I think other men do as well. I know I constantly have this tug to do more in any nursing situation, and I mean that from a medical standpoint, but am legally confined. Women have got to feel this also, but I think in a lesser degree. I think men have an individual drive and ambition that will eventually erode that boundary collectively, especially when the cross-section of men in nursing more closely resembles the general population. Hence, my statement that increased numbers of men will affect changes beneficial to us all.

HOWZZATT for some armchair quarterbacking? :smokin:

fergus51 · Jan 10, 2003

Excellent armchair work!:) Couldn't have done better myself after watching an NHL game;)

You may not know this, but being a female nurse has never involved the idea of subservience to me!!! LOL! You can ask some of the people I work with! :chuckle

The difference between your opinion and mine is that I think it is the "male" qualities we need more of (ambition, assertiveness, drive, etc. which I really don't like to call male, but that is what they are perceived to be) not necessarily the males themselves. Couple that with the "female" qualities (like collaborative leadership, consideration and caring) and we'd have some excellent advocates for the profession.

I am woman hear me roar :devil:

Glad2behere · Jan 11, 2003

Believe me! I am fully aware that you are not predisposed nor practice a subservient behavior, professionally speaking of course :eek:

I am willing to concede that "male qualities" are needed more in nursing regardeless of the source. I think men just have those qualities naturally and historically, and to an extent are able to focus a little better on tasks and filter through distractions that thwart them. I also think that one of the things that has been an obstacle in nursing and is so self defeating is my observation that women can be so gawdawful mean to each other, and that wastes energy and focus. From a male standpoint, there are two forces to contend with to affect change. The first is the desired change itself, secondly, having to tangle with the "roar of women". The second feature would have to be diffused and redirected to zero in on the first. So, as it stands right now, men who are nurses are outnumbered badly, confuse the fireworks of women as real artillery when it isn't, and are consequently seeking relief from the roar. The few numbers of them inhibit this, particularly when it is factored in that the roar often reaches a crescendo of such magnitude that surely some blood-letting is a immeninet, and self preservation becomes the primary goal. :chair:

peaceful2100, BSN, RN · Jan 11, 2003

I have to say that I agree 100% with Badbird, it is really sad But it is true. Remember voices do speak in numbers. I think It is much easier to sit back and complain but it does take a lot more effort to speak up, stand up and become active and more involved. I will have to come back in a few years and tell everyone for sure after I have gained my experienced as a nurse before I can truly and fairly say that.

TiddlDwink · Jan 16, 2003

Alas, after 35 years in nursing, I have to admit it's true! Since Florence took over the profession, it has been dominated by (historically subordinate) women. It is no different from any other female-dominant profession. Sorry, ladies. Men still make more than women. Men still have more clout than women politically and professionally. And, like it or not, women DO still have to take time off when they give birth.

I don't mean to get off on a rant here, but.....

It has been my observation over the years that more than half (the majority) of women take months off when thay have babies, not just a few days or weeks. I believe some women do take a little advantage of the system sometimes that allows them to do this. Well.... if they can get along without you for 3 months, they didn't need you in the first place.

Also, as one of you already said, women will never stick together on anything. AND, that's what it will take to make changes in the system. :sniff: :sniff:

TiddlDwink · Jan 17, 2003

By the way, Glad...

You are my hero!

I couldn't have said all that better myself!

oilerfan · Jan 17, 2003

My thought, and it may be unpopular, is this; Nursing is the last bastion of female supremacy. The profession will change my friends.

Although North America is slower to adapt than, for example, Western Europe, more males will enter nursing. Here is why. Wages are going up. Any time money becomes an issue, men will attempt to control it. The most simple example is cooking. At home it is the womans job, has been for eons. Toss the business aspect into the mix and Bam! ( as Emeril would say) Men are the Chefs and run the kitchen. No offence to men but as a 'female' job should there not be more female Chefs in the industry? Yup.

Here is the problem with nursing. I propose a question; How many of you want to work full and as much overtime as possible until you retire? My guess is very few. The burden of child is mostly on women. Men, and believe me when I say that the resolve a hard working man ( who feels a deep need to provide) cannot be matched by many women. The only person on the planet with more resolve is the single mother or other variations where the woman is bread winner. ( so please, no hate mail, just trying to make a general point)

I am rambling, wages will go up if more men run the unions and hospitals and fill the positions...it may take 75 years to have an even male/female split but it will happen.

Hope I did not offend...direct your yelling this way.

Hellllllo Nurse, BSN, RN · Jan 17, 2003

In other professions that are male dominated, what happens?

The men are treated well, get promotions, etc more often than women. I have worked with male nurses and I know that they were paid better than us "girls" and treated better, too. Especially by docs.

I have seen a doc totally belittle a female nurse for no reason, then turn to a male nurse and say "Hey, did you see the game yesterday?"

Male nurses get the best of of both worlds- they retain their male advantage, and are treated special for being a minority in the profession. In school, I had an instructor whose adult son had died suddenly. She was a sucker for male students. She accepted and gave good grades to men for inferior work that she would never have accepted from a female. A male student was directly responsible for a pt being injured in clinical, because he was insubordinate and negligent. She let it slide!

When a female student made a med error that caused no harm, she put that student on probation in the nursing program.

It used to be that male and nurse did not go together. People thought male nurses were an oddity. Now, they are respected and admired.

I think being a nurse can do good things for a man. But, having men as nurses will not benefit female nurses.

alwaysthere · Jan 17, 2003

We will only get as much ___ as we will take.

We will only get weaker if we continue to fight with one another.

If we dont put away our petty differences and join in a common

goal we will be pushed around any way the managment/

government wants.

A job is a job. Anding nursing is both a proffesion and an art.

Let it be done by whoever has the skill passion and intelligence

for it.

If we work together we will be stronger...why do you think

managment often allows/provokes things that will keep us apart.

Just my 2 cents

Pogoduck · Jan 17, 2003

If this professor's theory was right, there should be a great difference between working conditions in nursing and in jobs where mostly man work (ie a factory). According to this theory it should be heaven on earth if there are only or mostly men working. Believe me, I worked some time in a man-only job, and I did'nt like the working conditions : hard work, low pay, long hours. Tell this professor to leave his ivory tower and come back to earth.

acrofford · Aug 20, 2003

I'm only in my 3rd Q of this whole thing. Seems like a lot of hyper sensitive/bitter women in here(NO NOT ALL OF YOU...Whew). Taking one little snit bit of something and arguing tell ...when ever. I'm always haring (not on this site but in real life) "he this" or "he that" of "if he would ever" ...If you were an alien looking down you would think men folk are slow and dumb. So why do men clearly dominate this planet? Well, one thing men have in almost all aspects of social related life (in general) is comradery. I don't need to tell you how women pick apart other women/people because it "validates" who you are, or whatever reasons (same reason in other situations women empathize with one another). Ya, men too "diss" or "rank" but is not on the same level.. Besides you know what I'm talking about. Look at cats then look at dogs, simple as that (not really but you get the point). Look, women and men ARE different (in general, trying to cover all my stops because I know I will be quoted and kicked in the face) each are beautiful. Like every thing in life you can learn to play the game or fight it, which do you think will benefit you and your cause the most?... just think for a minute(unemotionally). Then the rules are made by who??? The ones who can play the game WITH OTHERS the best. Don't like it? blow on a tissue as do I with MANY things more important than who has a member or not or how there bring us down. Oh, and when you see that less than 4% male pop nurse, hold the door for him and be glad he made it threw the sexist ordeal, he's LEAST of your problems.