The real reason your failing in school

[studentmalenurse]

And the real reason is not because your not smart. Its not because nursing is hard. As a nurse I have seen the pattern, 40 students enter and only 10 graduate. Do you know why? The real reasons why is because of money. Yes MONEY!... Look at the cycle, people failing nursing programs for silly reasons, nursing programs creating exit exams that are unfair and the state boards knows about it. Well people the state boards of nursing and the schools are all part of the reason why so many people fail nursing school. And the reason is all about money. HERE is the FACT... Nurses get paid good money almost 65 to 75k to start, nurses are in demand, So what happens when something is not in demand anymore? The value goes down. People see the amount nurses make, they go to the school, if plenty people pass and graduate, that will throw more nurses into the work field, which will cause the nurses pay to go down, If the nurses pay goes down , guess what happens?? Fewer admissions into the nursing program. Thats right its a cycle, thats the reason why nursing school is getting harder and harder. To keep nursing pay up and to keep people entering nursing programs, the school benefits where poor people who invest their hard earned money into the program suffer. So believe it, its not you. This is the reason why unfair nursing instructers still remain. Shame on nursing.

[monkeyhq]

So, I actually have to "partially" agree with the original post. The city I go to school in has a plethora of RN programs. Seriously, they are inundated with new grads twice a year! Therefore, they don't have to pay as much, new grads in my town are offered just over $36K. That is very true folks! Yet if you drive about 5 hours in other directions with little nursing schools and the starting salary jumps about $10K/yr.

The salary differential has to do with a lot of factors--state, city, and local, and really has nothing to do with how many nursing 'schools' are in the area. It has to do with the local economy, average wages for the state, number of hospitals, trauma level rating of those hospitals, magnet status hospitals, specialty hospitals, LTC facilities, the general population, unemployment rates, and so many other factors.

In my area, there are quite a few nursing schools--a massive hospital BSN program, three community college programs, six technical (ADN) schools, a state-funded diploma program, and two university programs. Starting pay for a new grade is very high here in comparison to other decently populated communities on the outskirts of the 'reasonable radius' of these nursing schools, and those communities have NO nursing schools. Not one. And my city isn't even in a Top 50 market (meaning it isn't NYC, Chicago, LA, etc.), and it is in the midwest. The rate of pay in a similarly sized cities on our state borders is significantly lower, and they do not have a density of nursing schools.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics has an interesting statistic on nursing salary by location, it is a great read!

Registered Nurses*

[maj0079]

The salary differential has to do with a lot of factors--state, city, and local, and really has nothing to do with how many nursing 'schools' are in the area. It has to do with the local economy, average wages for the state, number of hospitals, trauma level rating of those hospitals, magnet status hospitals, specialty hospitals, LTC facilities, the general population, unemployment rates, and so many other factors.

In my area, there are quite a few nursing schools--a massive hospital BSN program, three community college programs, six technical (ADN) schools, a state-funded diploma program, and two university programs. Starting pay for a new grade is very high here in comparison to other decently populated communities on the outskirts of the 'reasonable radius' of these nursing schools, and those communities have NO nursing schools. Not one. And my city isn't even in a Top 50 market (meaning it isn't NYC, Chicago, LA, etc.), and it is in the midwest. The rate of pay in a similarly sized cities on our state borders is significantly lower, and they do not have a density of nursing schools.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics has an interesting statistic on nursing salary by location, it is a great read!

Registered Nurses*

Thank you for this! I truly thought it was due to the high amount of new grads. Upon seeing that, South Dakota has a high employment rate, but they are one of the lowest paid states!

[monkeyhq]

It is amazing how large the disparity is in some areas. I would want to move out of SD, lol.

[dudette10, MSN, RN]

I agree. While there may be "bad" teachers, the material to study for the exam exists - and you can't blame the teachers even when they teach a subject which you consider to be poorly done. If there are things you didn't understand because you blamed it on the teacher's style of teaching, it falls on you to reconcile that on your own. Teachers are not the scapegoats. I admit, my first semester of not understanding the NCLEX questions, I fell into that mentality. Let's be real here, it's always easier to blame someone else, isn't it? Yes it is. And at some point in any adult's life, not just nursing students, I would hope that person understands that he or she is in charge of life, nobody else.

Interesting concept, but I don't agree completely. If this was 100% true, why have teachers at all for adult learners? All we would need would be a textbook and the Internet. We could all seek out those tools we needed to learn in our own style.

Let me provide a disclaimer that online learning is most definitely on your own, but some adult learners seek out classroom environments BECAUSE they know their learning style requires actual teaching by another.

That said, there is an EXPECTATION of teaching expertise when in a classroom environment. The teacher presents the information, explains the information, solicits/answers questions, and assesses understanding. Rinse, repeat. While I agree that the adult learner must take responsibility for her own learning, that responsibility involves doing the readings, taking notes, using suggested resources, and asking for assistance when understanding is not happening.

I feel that your statement also diminishes the skill of excellent teachers, and the role they have in the success of students, whether those students are the DIY type or those who learn best in a classroom environment. Bad teachers do indeed affect the success both types of students in classrooms.

Just as there are some adult learners who don't really need teachers to learn, there are some who do. It's not always the learner's fault.

I am a DIY learner. Online learning is no problem for me, and that's why I'm doing an online MSN. However, I went to a traditional BSN school. One teacher for one of my classes was so awful that she was eventually asked to resign. She made learning difficult because she complicated concepts, rather than simplifying them, which required me and others like me to go home and relearn everything for that lecture. The other learners who needed teacher guidance were in an even worse spot than I was.

[NuGuyNurse2b]

Interesting concept, but I don't agree completely. If this was 100% true, why have teachers at all for adult learners? All we would need would be a textbook and the Internet. We could all seek out those tools we needed to learn in our own style.

I think you're confusing the process. Learning completely on your own (which is what you are referring to) and learning through an instructor and then supplementing that learning on your own(what I'm talking about) are two very different things. I never said we don't need instructors - that's you trying to prove your point by inferring that.

Let me provide a disclaimer that online learning is most definitely on your own, but some adult learners seek out classroom environments BECAUSE they know their learning style requires actual teaching by another.

We're not talking about online learning. You're bringing an argument about a completely different topic to this discussion. Adult learners aren't "seeking" out classroom environments - that's how nursing schools are taught, the brick and mortar ones, the ones we are discussing, not the on-line ones like Excelsior.

That said, there is an EXPECTATION of teaching expertise when in a classroom environment. The teacher presents the information, explains the information, solicits/answers questions, and assesses understanding. Rinse, repeat. While I agree that the adult learner must take responsibility for her own learning, that responsibility involves doing the readings, taking notes, using suggested resources, and asking for assistance when understanding is not happening.

So whose responsibility is it when your above description of the presenting/explaining/soliciting questions of the materials cycle doesn't penetrate the learner's mind? Hint: it's still not the instructor's.

I feel that your statement also diminishes the skill of excellent teachers, and the role they have in the success of students, whether those students are the DIY type or those who learn best in a classroom environment. Bad teachers do indeed affect the success both types of students in classrooms.

How in the world did you come to that conclusion? So me saying a student is responsible for taking appropriate measures to his/her success is somehow diminishing what education he/she received from a good instructor? I don't think so. Bad teachers do not affect either types of students in the classrooms - students affect the types of students in the classrooms. A bad student with a bad instructor will be a bad student - he's going to sit there, complain the instructor is bad, and not do anything more. A good student with a bad instructor will seek out other avenues of learning and continue to be a good student. Likewise, a bad student with a good instructor will still be a bad student, he's going to sit there and say great lecture, not do the reading, not study, not integrate the learning. Whereas a good student and a good instructor will create synergy. So how does my comment diminish the role of good instructors, who according to you, have a set expectation of professionalism anyway?

Just as there are some adult learners who don't really need teachers to learn, there are some who do. It's not always the learner's fault.

I am a DIY learner. Online learning is no problem for me, and that's why I'm doing an online MSN. However, I went to a traditional BSN school. One teacher for one of my classes was so awful that she was eventually asked to resign. She made learning difficult because she complicated concepts, rather than simplifying them, which required me and others like me to go home and relearn everything for that lecture. The other learners who needed teacher guidance were in an even worse spot than I was.

So basically, you did everything that I wrote about - taking control of your education when you felt an instructor was inadequate. But you got your BSN after all - did that instructor hold you back? Obviously not, cause you made it through. Are you still trying to blame the instructor for the bad experience? Sure. Can you blame her for your success? No, cause that was all your doing. You certainly can't thank her for your success, either. So it really wasn't the teacher, was it?

If you were like your classmates who were worse off, you would be blaming the instructor. And this goes back to what I was saying - it's easier to point the finger at someone else.

[morte, LPN, LVN]

I thought it was fairly commonly understood that if a large percentage of well selected and previously prepared students (both things the job of the school) flunked a class, it more than likely was the teacher/instructor not the students... just common sense.

[dudette10, MSN, RN]

I hate parsing out another's post, but you said that even with bad teachers, the material to study still exists. That particular line in your original post was what I based my response on. Just having the material available is not sufficient for many adult learners! They need a good--or at least competent--teacher!

You insist that bad instructors don't affect students at all. You use those very words. That's just ridiculous.

Maybe you and I just have differing perspectives on what defines a bad student. You are describing a LAZY student. I am describing a student who works hard but has difficulty understanding material on her own.

[NuGuyNurse2b]

I hate parsing out another's post, but you said that even with bad teachers, the material to study still exists. That particular line in your original post was what I based my response on. Just having the material available is not sufficient for many adult learners! They need a good--or at least competent--teacher!

You insist that bad instructors don't affect students at all. You use those very words. That's just ridiculous.

Maybe you and I just have differing perspectives on what defines a bad student. You are describing a LAZY student. I am describing a student who works hard but has difficulty understanding material on her own.

A bad teacher does not equal no teacher. It's as simple as that...medicine is not an occupation that you can pick up a book, read it on your own, and become a doctor, nurse, pharmacist, etc. It's that very concept that I think you are disagreeing with. So yes, a bad teacher does not affect a student at all, just as a good teacher with a rousing lecture isn't going to lift a failing student who's not studied for the past 3 exams. How is that "ridiculous"? I once again ask you - can you blame that one bad instructor for you getting your BSN? You clearly still hold some kind of grudge against her, but did she actually block you from getting your BSN? So then she didn't affect you, cause you made it through your program. How do you argue against that?

A student who works hard but has difficulty understanding material on her own is a lazy student. It is no secret that NCLEX questions are hard - but is it impossible? Is that why thousands of new nurses actually make it through their rigorous programs each year? At the end of the day, the responsibility once again falls on the student, no one else. You are describing someone who claims to work hard and yet fails to understand the material - so what is said student actually doing to rectify that knowledge deficit? That is the point I'm making. How does one sit there and blame someone else when that person does not try to solve the problem on her own?

[windsurfer8, BSN, RN]

I hate to tell you this, but you will have bad bosses as a nurse as well. Also bad coworkers. Your option is to quit or drive on. Learning how to succeed with a "good" or "bad" teacher is very important. I find my hardest and maybe "bad" teachers are the ones I learned the most from. They taught me to find a way to succeed. Does anyone remember anything from a class 5 years ago? More than likely not. However they adapted and overcame and built skills to adapt and overcome. I NEVER buy the "blame someone else" stuff.