ethics lecture rant (sensitive topic)

CA CoCoRN, RN · Feb 22, 2005

Not an abortion argument...but my bias swings to this issue given the arena that I work in.

I'm pro-choice...I choose to keep my two pregnancies because that's what was right for me, what I wanted. But I can't impose my belief system on someone whom I don't know, whose life I don't live, whose circumstances I don't have.

I've cared for mothers who've had 20 or more abortions. I "don't like it"...because though I'm pro-choice, I'm pro-sense too!! In everything we do in life, we need to use some sense: itfyou have to keep doing something, that means you should change the thing that's causing you to do that "particular thing".

But then again...whatever works for that mom.

Suffice to say, since I'm not the one actually INVOLVED in that pt's "thing" that rubs me the right way, even though I know that they've done "x", my care needs to be based on their current issue....NOT THEIR PAST.

I don't really understand folks who say, "Well, my patient has done "such and such" in their life, so I won't have any part of them...." Who made you God, Judge, Executioner, etc? We all deal in life with those who have done something we may not agree with. However, the only reason that we know these things about the patient is because they disclose their Personal Health Information. They don't disclose it for us to judge them...they disclose it so that they may receive proper care. You look at it...decide if it involves your care...if it does, you treat it so, OBJECTIVELY,....if it doesn't IGNORE IT.!!!

CA CoCoRN, RN · Feb 22, 2005

I don't believe treating the patient means you are accepting what they did was okay.

I like this quote. It's true. Just because we do our jobs in our chosen field doesn't mean we are condoning what our patients do. It simply means that they are entitled to receive the care that we swore (via the Hippocratic or other oath) to give.

If you don't want to know the life/health decisions that your patients have made...it's best not to be a Health Care Practitioner of any sort.

Otherwise....treat your patients....then, we you are off duty, pray, meditate, etc for yourself...and even them, if so moved.

Try never to pass your views to the patient.

I work in a Catholic hospital.......and serve majority Catholic patients....all of whom have "sinned". :)

CA CoCoRN, RN · Feb 22, 2005

ZPG doesn't mean having children universally is bad; it means having too many children is bad. I don't understand why you would object to L&D. If you objected to people having children, period, then L&D, to me, would be the same as being pro-life and taking care of someone who suffered the consequences of abortion.
Personally, I think it would be better to promote non-consumerist, minimalist lifestyles than promoting ZPG. It isn't that ALL people take up too many resources; it's just the resources taken up by the individual people. There has been a correlation between degree of education and fewer births--so we just need to educate the world and that should take care of population growth :)
NurseFirst

NurseFirst....are you the one who posted "Childless in L&D"??

If not...no worries (don't feel like going to look for the post).

Anyway...just a question on ZPG; mind you, I know nothing of them, so my question is out of the blue. I just happened to read someone else's response to you. Let's say we all have no children from now on. Once we, the "elders" reach late life and death...and all generations who've subsequently had no children either...what's left??

I'm not going to to the math right now to find out how many years that will take. I have an idea, if you base it on those who are born in the world today, and no further pregnancies or births occur after today.

Anyway...what's to be left after everyone dies. What's the "point" of ZPG?

Good natured question. Don't take offense.

Kyriaka · Feb 22, 2005

It is very easy to judge a person not knowing the whole story.

I had a child born with a gigantic occipital encephalocele (over 20 lbs). He was in and out of surgeries his whole life with shunts failing right and left.

One time, on the Peds floor, I noticed several nurses staring, whispering, and pointing at me. Several gave me dirty looks.

One looked at my son and then asked me, "what happened to him.". I was confused and said, "he has always had a shunt.". She rolled her eyes and walked out!!

Come to find out there was another child on the floor who also had a shunt. The child had been beaten, abused, and had seizures. That child was on the floor having a shunt put in after being left brain damaged from shaken baby syndrome!

Those nurses made some terrible judgements about my situation and had confused me with someone else!

fergus51 · Feb 23, 2005

I think there is a big difference between judging a patient for their choices and simply trying to live within your own morals. As long as someone cares for the patient, I don't see why we have to be so harsh with our colleagues.

FutureNrse · Feb 23, 2005

Today our lecture was on ethics and values in nursing care. We were discussing abortions and our teacher was explaining to us that we can refuse to care for a patient if say they are in the hospital because of a serious medical problem due to an abortion. The discussion got a little heated (personally I wouldn't try and refuse to care for anyone unless I felt threatened in some way) but some of the students in my class explained they would never care for a patient who was in the hospital from a problem with an abortion unless obviously no one was available to take over that pt's care. I was surprised a few students felt so strongly about this. I thought a big part of nursing care is to not pass judgement and be as accepting as possible. I realize we're only human but personally I feel that if you have reservations about treating certain pt's because they believe in something you don't...or they have acted in a way that you feel is against your own morals, you're in the wrong profession.
Anyway...a little fired up from the lecture still and wondering how you guys feel about passing a pt on to another nurse and reasons that would make you refuse care to for someone.
(no abortion arguments please)
Ginyer

I think you have it right. It takes a certain type of person to go into any medical profesion and you're right, if you can't serperate your feelings from your job responsibilities then you're in the wrong profession. I think the proper way to handle a sitiation such as you presented, would be to give the patient the proper care, and vent about it later.

NurseFirst · Feb 23, 2005

NurseFirst....are you the one who posted "Childless in L&D"??
If not...no worries (don't feel like going to look for the post).
Anyway...just a question on ZPG; mind you, I know nothing of them, so my question is out of the blue. I just happened to read someone else's response to you. Let's say we all have no children from now on. Once we, the "elders" reach late life and death...and all generations who've subsequently had no children either...what's left??
I'm not going to to the math right now to find out how many years that will take. I have an idea, if you base it on those who are born in the world today, and no further pregnancies or births occur after today.
Anyway...what's to be left after everyone dies. What's the "point" of ZPG?
Good natured question. Don't take offense.

Oh heavens no!!! I'm childless, but that has more to do with the fact that I have never been married; I will remain childless because I no longer have the equipment (besides, it had already put up "retired" signs :) ) and I'm too old to adopt. :)

I'm not a proponent of ZPG; but, even so, I can tell you that ZPG means zero populations GROWTH, not zero population :) ) Nope, no way, no how. I am pro-life. Very conservative when it comes to various forms of contraception, but that's for me, and, if someone of my faith ever asked my advice...my faith teaches that each couple has to make their own decisions regarding contraception, in conjunction with their priest.

But, to good-naturedly respond, I have a good friend who is a proponent of cryonics. So, I guess we could just keep resurrecting people who've died and been frozen when we figure out what killed them and how to cure it... :)

NurseFirst

CHATSDALE · Feb 23, 2005

i have known of a nurse who said that she could not care for a rape suspect because of a rape when she was a teenager...everyone closed ranks and took care of her pt even if it required going down her hall...no one approved of him and what he was accused of doing...no one thought less of her for not being able to take care of this pt

as for grammer...knowledge of grammer is probably better than my typing skills...proof reading is time consuming and spell check is off for casual use like on a board

i

sfdonna · Feb 26, 2005

Today our lecture was on ethics and values in nursing care. We were discussing abortions and our teacher was explaining to us that we can refuse to care for a patient if say they are in the hospital because of a serious medical problem due to an abortion. The discussion got a little heated (personally I wouldn't try and refuse to care for anyone unless I felt threatened in some way) but some of the students in my class explained they would never care for a patient who was in the hospital from a problem with an abortion unless obviously no one was available to take over that pt's care. I was surprised a few students felt so strongly about this. I thought a big part of nursing care is to not pass judgement and be as accepting as possible. I realize we're only human but personally I feel that if you have reservations about treating certain pt's because they believe in something you don't...or they have acted in a way that you feel is against your own morals, you're in the wrong profession.
Anyway...a little fired up from the lecture still and wondering how you guys feel about passing a pt on to another nurse and reasons that would make you refuse care to for someone.
(no abortion arguments please)
Ginyer

Caring in nursing should not have borders...altho that being said I would not want a nurse who was judgemental to care for me...I'd advise some counseling...we need to work thru our "issues" so that we can become the professionsal we aspired... sfdonna

Deaconess · Mar 1, 2005

I am an ER nurse at a Catholic hospital. Personally, I am "pro-life," but I have and will continue to care for women who are suffering from complications from medical and surgical abortions. By doing so, I do not feel that I am condoning their choice, just taking care of a woman with a medical problem.

No, I don't dispense "emergency contraception," and I would not assist with an abortion, but whats done is done. I take care of many people who make choices I do not agree with that result in them being in the ER. But my job is to take care of them in a competent and compassionate way.

ParasMom · Jan 6, 2006

Although I would not participate in an abortion, and would not choose to work in a place where it would be expected that I do so, I wouldn't refuse to care for someone who came from complications of an abortion. There is a difference to me.

I agree! I couldn't have said it better.

det01 · Jan 6, 2006

I am an ER nurse at a Catholic hospital. Personally, I am "pro-life," but I have and will continue to care for women who are suffering from complications from medical and surgical abortions. By doing so, I do not feel that I am condoning their choice, just taking care of a woman with a medical problem.
No, I don't dispense "emergency contraception," and I would not assist with an abortion, but whats done is done. I take care of many people who make choices I do not agree with that result in them being in the ER. But my job is to take care of them in a competent and compassionate way.

I could not agree more! I would never assist in an abortaion or give emergency contraception due to my own "pro-life" beliefs. However, I would still care for someone who had complications from one, although right now it would be doubally hard on me since I JUST had a miscarriage of a VERY wanted baby On Christmas day, but that is beside the point. My own pain does not mean it is okay for me not to give the best care I can to a patient. I do not agree with lots of things people do, and I am sure people may not agree with some of the things I do. That really should not compromise care for someone who is sick.