Why, would any RN oppose requiring a BSN for all future nurses?

Nurses General Nursing

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Okay, I could see certain philisophical objections, such as if you are a libertarian, or strict conservative that opposes most governmental regulations (after all standards for education are a form of governmental regulation). However, any such provisions would almost certainly have provisions that "grand-fathered" in all current RN's who had diploma or ADN/ASN degrees (and would probably include those students currently enrolled in ADN programs).

The bottom line is that pay, and to a lesser extent respect for ANY profession, is primarily determined by supply and demand for that profession. Now as nurses, there is little that we can do to address demand ( save perhaps for buying stock in fast food restaurents since that will surely generate more business in terms of cardiovascular disease). However, we can address supply. In so much as getting a BSN requires more time and effort than a ADN it will TEND to diminish the supply of nurses. Virturally every profession in the United States has recognized this simple principal from accountents, to physicians and pharmacists. Over the years they have successfully lobbied their various state and federal representatives to steadily raise the requirements in order to obtain a license to practice their profession. Consider Pharmacists for instance. At one time all one had to do was "work behind the counter" under the instruction of an experienced pharmacist for several years to acquire a pharmacy license. Then they required an examination. Gradually, the requirements were increased to a two, then a four year degree. Now it requires SIX years of difficult schooling plus a challenging examination to practice pharmacy. The net result is that the pay of pharmacists has dramatically increased, and they are now in a true "buyers market" for their services.

It's the way the "profession game" is played in the United States. I'm not saying that it is without it's moral implications. As someone who is largely libertarian, I am usually opposed to most governmental intrusion in the private sector. However, I'm also a realist, and as someone who plans on spending the rest of my life in this profession, I realize that this is the sort of thing that will help to raise the compensation, and benefit level of my chosen profession.

Alnamvet, can you please go into more detail about the community health care course you're referring to? I have a BS in Psychology and am curious about options other than pursuing an ADN.

Thanks!

I am assuming you have an RN license, so with your BS in Psych, what you are probably missing is a course in Community/public health. Also, a nursing research course is part of a BSN, but any undergraduate course that required research is acceptable to all graduate nursing programs. Just as an example, take a look at Columbia University's FNP program...their requirement for admission is either a BSN or a Bachelors degree in any field + a 5 crdit Community Health course. The philosophy and intent is simple...you are an RN?...You have a BS in Psych? Than just take a Comm Health course...same as any 'ol BSN. :)

EDUCATION FOR ENTRY INTO NURSING PRACTICE: REVISITED FOR THE 21ST CENTURY

http://nursingworld.org/ojin/topic18/tpc18_4.htm

EDUCATION FOR PROFESSIONAL NURSING PRACTICE: LOOKING BACKWARD INTO THE FUTURE

http://nursingworld.org/ojin/topic18/tpc18_3.htm

This article more eloquently states my feelings re needing the BSN as entry into Professional nursing practice. Elevate the LPN role to the ADN level and you have two excellent levels of practioners without fragmentation. For those LPN's who want to advance to RN, continue today's bridge programs fvcrom 2yr to 4yr programs.

I read the above articles, and though it was said numerous times that a baccalaureate education as entry level only applies to baccalaureate in nursing..no mention of any baccalaureate. This is the problem that virtually every nurse who has a bachelors in another field with regard to equivalent education/recognition. A BSN is fine if you start fresh with no previous educational "baggage". But if you have a BS or MS, etc, THAN attend an ADN program, you have already the same technical training (the nursing part) and the education (the liberal arts/science part) found in all BSN programs. So I fail to see what the issue is. There is a huge community of nurses who are well educated, have degrees in the Sciences, social sciences, education, etc who as an after thought, went to an ADN school and simply took those nursing courses required for licensure...the same equivalent courses found in a BSN program. Yest, these very same nurses are being denied equivalent licensure in North Dakota, or are not given pay incentives 'cause in spite of their educational achievements, there is no BSN attachedto their names. No one in these forums, nor anyone at the ANA wishes to address this issue...and I can only speculate why>

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.

right on alnamvet!

1. If I made more money than Oprah, I would still be curious about these in issues, and advocate the positions that I feel to be correct. In the same way that people like Rush Limbaugh are multi-millionares, but still vigerously advocate the positions that they feel strongly about. My happiness as a nurse is not particularly relevent. I work to to live and eat and see that my family has what it needs. Happiness, is an elusive bonus and the days that I have it (most days), I am grateful to God. The fact is that few people are truly happy with their work. However, THAT's OKAY because if it were overwhelmingly enjoyable they wouldn't have to pay people to do the job (or at least not as much).

2. With regard to barriers to entry in order to control supply I'm not partial to a BSN. I start with a BSN, because it seems logical given that the field we are discussing is nursing. However, if there was a concensus to require three years of advanced pharmacy classes for RN licensure, I would consider that equally valid for accommplishing the same objectives. If I WERE a sanitation worker, I would be posting the same diatribes only with respect to that profession. Unfortunately, (for nurses) I would suggest that sanitation workers in New York have erected more effective barriers to entry than have nurses. Indeed, what I am alluding to is a little discussed socioeconomic/ phenominum in America, the time honored practice of creating professional barriers (and constantly advocating for more in the political arena). Corporations do the same thing, except that they attempt to create commercial barriers to competition (with varying degrees of success). Heck, this is a subject that I find to be less discussed, and more interesting than 80% of the political and economic books that I have been required to read during my higher education. If authors like Robert Putnam (Bowling Alone) and Theda Skocpol (Diminished Democracy) can write volumes explorinng the social minutia of declining civil participation that the President quotes (Clinton quoted Putnam on several occasions) and academic scholars debate, surely an issue that underlies the very economic basis of MOST professions is worthy of discussion. Even more so by the professionals most affected by the issue.

3. I AM fascinated about what historical factors guided the current situation with regard to requiring an ADN/BSN for RN licensure. At one time the diploma route predominated. Obviously, socio-economic or political forces combined to bring about change so that the situation that we have today exists. How can you NOT be curious about these issues? Perhaps, many of you are like me and cannot wait to get up each morning to check the latest JPL photo's from Mar's Spirit and Opportunity Rover. Why? because it is fascinating to see this alien world so much like our own, and to ponder the forces that made it so different. Now if I (or you) find THAT fascinating how can you not be equally curious about the factors which shape your destiny as a nurse (and by extension those that you love)?

Originally posted by Roland

seem to keep bringing up the BSN verses ASN debate as to what degree is better? Can't you see that's not my point? My only concern here is maximizing RN salaries. Point out why that is a horrible idea all day long if you want, but don't keep going back to this bickering over ASN verses BSN.

Then buy a lottery ticket, it ain't about the money honey.

okay, I'll bite, I've been reading this thread for 1/2 my life it seems.

How much?? Fess us? Put a dollar vaue on my being exposed to MRSA, VRE, hepatitis, AIDS, TB, then let's mix in unsafe assignments, where minimum care is a high goal to acheive. Let's bring in the uneducated patient, the unrealistic, uneducated families, that believe they visited the hilton.

Now Lets talk about the care required for my long term hearts, waiting months for someone to die so they can have a chance to live. How much will $50 per hour buy you in a nurse, can they prioritize to sit and work a puzzle shooting the breeze, making a long termer smile, so they can go one for one more day waiting? No, how about $60 per hour for the nurse that finds a way to make the other four paitents (who are dying waiting for a heart) find the strength to keep the fight for one more day, as thier number isn't called and room #2 gets a heart due to better tissue typing?

Wait, I know let's give those good nurses $70 per hour, let's have them do all that, and remember to throw birthday parties, bring in books, movies and magazines for those just waiting,,,,, hey a $200 bonus for those who go with out sleep, to cook a dish to throw a christms party together for the patients.

Don't you see... you could never pay me enough in monetary compensation to make me go back there tonight, in 5 hours, because I'm still up, here, haunted by what I do and see..... and I'll be there because I CARE.

You can't put a price tag on that. You can't put letters behind your name for that... It's WHY we are nurses

All that you say is true, but that doesn't mean that the economics of nursing should be dismissed either. My point is that virtually every trade, profession, or business has professionals dedicated to raising the wages, and benefits of their group. One of the most common tactics utilized is creating barriers to entry (corporations try to limit competition through various means fair and foul). My most recent point in this post is that SOMETHING HAPPENED to cause nursing to shift from primarily a "diploma school" tradition to the ASN/ BSN situation we have today (to become licensed). I would be interested in exploring what some of those factors were that gave rise to this change, and explore if debates similar to this one occured then. Again, I would still be asking these questions even IF I won the supper lotto. The only difference is that I would hire professional writers, backed up by big time economic research to butress my points. Why? Because, I both care about these issues, and because I am legitimately fascinated by the underlying dynamics both of nursing in particular, and human nature in general.

Also, I would point out that the AMA has been vary aggressive over the years about continually raising barriers to entry in their profession! Consider that a GP of thirty years ago would almost be considered "a rogue doctor" today if he or she didn't go on to gain "specialty" certification such a "family practice medicine" or some other specialty. The bottom line is that TODAY to become an MD involves a much more extended residency (and often things like post residency fellowships) than it did in previous generations. Of course this ultimately translates to higher pay for physicians. I mention this because most people consider physicians to be equally dedicated to the lives of their patients. That profession too is often considered a "calling". Speaking of callings did you realize that the average compensation level for preachers in protestent congregations exceeds sixty thousand per annum according to many surveys (and I can personally attest to this having done many mortgage loans for local Lutherin, Methodist, and Baptist churches). They too have a "higher calling" and yet this doesn't cause them to feel guilty for getting adequately compensated. My thesis is that nursing has historically been a "woman" dominated profession and that institutions (such as Dr's, hospitals and others) have essentially "brainwashed" them into believiing that it is a "calling" for the express purpose of being able to pay them less, and work them harder. My mother and aunt told me that when they were in nursing school they were taught NEVER to look a Dr in the eye, or to "talk back to them" and to RISE when a Dr entered the room (granted she was trained in a Catholic setting, and my aunt was trained in a Catholic hospital).

My most recent point in this post is that SOMETHING HAPPENED to cause nursing to shift from primarily a "diploma school" tradition to the ASN/ BSN situation we have today (to become licensed). I would be interested in exploring what some of those factors were that gave rise to this change, and explore if debates similar to this one occured then.

I seem to recall a continuuing education offering on the ANA site (nursingworld.org) which explores that "shift"; The title started with "Entry to Practice" and one of the authors was Donley or Donly. In any event you need not purchase the offering to read the article which I found to be an informative and relatively concise review of the period when the ANA's position paper was issued.

okay, I'll bite, I've been reading this thread for 1/2 my life it seems.

How much?? Fess us? Put a dollar vaue on my being exposed to MRSA, VRE, hepatitis, AIDS, TB, then let's mix in unsafe assignments, where minimum care is a high goal to acheive. Let's bring in the uneducated patient, the unrealistic, uneducated families, that believe they visited the hilton.

Now Lets talk about the care required for my long term hearts, waiting months for someone to die so they can have a chance to live. How much will $50 per hour buy you in a nurse, can they prioritize to sit and work a puzzle shooting the breeze, making a long termer smile, so they can go one for one more day waiting? No, how about $60 per hour for the nurse that finds a way to make the other four paitents (who are dying waiting for a heart) find the strength to keep the fight for one more day, as thier number isn't called and room #2 gets a heart due to better tissue typing?

Wait, I know let's give those good nurses $70 per hour, let's have them do all that, and remember to throw birthday parties, bring in books, movies and magazines for those just waiting,,,,, hey a $200 bonus for those who go with out sleep, to cook a dish to throw a christms party together for the patients.

Don't you see... you could never pay me enough in monetary compensation to make me go back there tonight, in 5 hours, because I'm still up, here, haunted by what I do and see..... and I'll be there because I CARE.

You can't put a price tag on that. You can't put letters behind your name for that... It's WHY we are nurses

I was touched by your post, heart queen.

Roland, we'll make you a deal. Do the research that you are so interested in and them come back and tell us why the system shifted from diploma nurses to college trained nurses. And while you're at it, you'll need to investigate college accreditation and all the things that come with it because that's part of the equation as well. Remember that higher education sets up the rules as they do to bar a certain number of people from obtaining higher education. If they didn't then everyone would have a minimum of a 4 year degree, in which case, it would be nearly as worthless as a high school diploma is now. Then you will have to argue for us all to be master's trained, then Ph.D trained and then post Ph.D graduate trained. In the mean time, some one still has to take care of the patients.

And because you haven't got a lot of experience with doctors yet, let me point out to you that they also have their own little caste system. Family practice is looked down upon by specialty who are looked down upon by general surgeons who are looked down upon by neurosurgeons who are looked down upon by CT surgeons.

You are the one so curious. The rest of us go to work and do the job and don't worry about each others degrees. There are good and bad ADN's and good and bad BSN's. It's got nothing to do with your education. It is a female dominated field and probably always will be. That fact has probably held us down, I wouldn't argue that. Your ecomonic concerns are probably valid. Until they make a BSN trained nurse take a harder NCLEX and take harder patients on the floor, it really doesn't matter. We are one sisterhood, working together toward one goal.

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