To recommend or not to recommend?

stelon · Jul 24, 2010

Just had to mention I'm only 22 and a new LVN who is working on the last of my pre-reqs to bridge into the RN program and I hate the majority of my generation. That sense of entitlement you're talking about really is plentiful now and part of the reason I changed my mind from teaching to nursing after my first semester in college.

I've been working as a CNA almost 3 years, and even a good many of the people in my classes who want to be nurses drive me insane if I listen to them for any amount of time. They don't put in the work for the good grades they feel they should have--instead they constantly harp on myself and other students who are actually working hard to repeat whatever the professor just said or tell them what to do instead of reading directions themselves. (While when they're not paying attention they're mostly goofing off and talking or texting during class.)

But they want to be nurses. It drives me absolutely insane.

twois · Jul 24, 2010

Just out of curiosity, does this subject often come up in ICU job interviews? I often wonder how many GN's end up in their dream pre-CRNA ICU position after casually disavowing any interest in immediately going on to grad school... then do a 180 when it's recommendation letter time.

It's gotta be a sticky situation. Honesty is the best policy, IMO, but I can see how it could get a little grey-area with this. Or are people generally upfront about their plans to continue their education after a year? Do ICU managers actually hire folks who admit to this?

(Sorry if it's a bit off-topic, I just see a lot about this topic but not much discussion on the interview honesty side of it.)

TigerGalLE, BSN, RN · Jul 24, 2010

That was the first question I was asked when I inquired about moving from med/surg to ICU. I went to the ICU manager's office a few days after applying to introduce myself. The first question he asked me was, "Where do you see yourself in 5 years?" I thought... how odd... what do I say... I had no idea that he was quizzing me to see if I wanted ICU just to go on to CRNA school... So I said... "Hopefully here." (We were in the ICU at the time). He seem pleased with that answer and set up and interview with me.

He later told me that was why he asked. If I had said "CRNA school" he probably wouldn't have considered me. Esp after recently losing 3 staff to CRNA school. I personally have no interest in it. I actually enjoy interacting with my patients.

MInurse.st · Jul 24, 2010

No, she didn't ask me -- she asked my boss, but I'm sure that this is going to get around to my coworkers (not from me....I didn't spill the beans in the first place.)
All CRNA programs that I have seen want 1 year of recent ICU experience. She may have that by the time she got into one, depending on how far the application date was from the program start date, but I get the reservations with wanting to recommend when you have only observed someone for two months.
She is very entitled. I was going to mention that in my first post but I was afraid someone was just going to tell me I'm an old bat that has it in for the new girl. It seems like more and more of the younger nurses we hire (read, 25 or less) are like this --know it all, I'm too good for this job type. (Now I really AM going to get flamed from the 25 and under set.) I don't know if this is just at my job or if there are some generational differences here I just don't get. I was always one of those people that had to work my patootie off for every single thing I had -- I didn't grow up underprivileged, but my family was working class to the bone, and couldn't help me at all when I got out on my own. It seems like this new crop of grads we have always have had everything paid for and they just expect it.
Maybe that's the core of my post ... just misunderstanding of where this girl comes from. IDK.

I'd just like to mention that I think the "entitlement mentality" has much less to do with age than it does with socioeconomic status/upbringing. There are plenty of people in my generation who have grown up lower class/working class, like myself, who have had to work for everything they have. I have worked since I was 14, paid all my personal bills (cell phone, car purchase/payment insurance, clothes, etc.) through high school, moved out at 18, and have never had any financial help since. Actually, I've helped my mother financially while working during college. There hasn't been a day (besides 2 weeks when I moved) in my life I haven't been employed. I don't expect anything to be handed to me, because it never was to begin with, and I know I'm not the only 24 year old who has had this experience.

I think the reason that the entitlement mentality is pinned to a generation, rather than one's SES and upbringing is because it's just easier to recognize someone's age. I really hope that older generations will keep this in mind, as it's upsetting to me to hear that I'm entitled because I'm 24. Although, I guess it's just as frustrating as any stereotype would be...

CNL2B · Jul 24, 2010

I also think entitlement is pinned to Generation Y is because they are often the youngest children of the Baby Boomers -- and the Boomers have been documented as being the most financially successful generation to date. I'm a Gen X that was a child of very young Boomer parents. A lot of Gen Y's have been the children of older Boomers that were already educated, employed, and doing quite well. Obviously within generations we are all diverse in about a million ways, but as a huge, age-related (although diverse) group, there are some similarities or "typical" characteristics. I do think that Gen Y isn't old enough to make a very good assessment of how they are going to play out long term, though.

Here is a good quote: "Some employers are concerned that Millennials have too great expectations from the workplace and desire to shape their jobs to fit their lives rather than adapt their lives to their workplace." From wikipedia (searched Generation Y) and this quote is footnoted #75, which was an article from the Wall Street Journal called "The Trophy Kids Go to Work." This applies to what I am experiencing -- most definitely.

Lucky0220 · Jul 24, 2010

Recently was told in confidence by a co-worker that my NM refused to write a brand new (less than 2 months off orientation) ICU nurse in our unit a recommendation for a CRNA program and she was HOPPING MAD, making statements like "My b#$%^ of a nurse manager", etc. etc. This particular nurse is 24 years old and in no way has mastered ICU practice in her two months (from my humble observation, and everyone elses.) I think it makes sense that she didn't write her a recommendation -- how do you do that when you know this person is a novice ICU RN? FYI my NM is not a b@#%(. She is one of the best and fairest bosses I have ever had.
Said nurse is very book smart, but she has a bad work ethic from what I've seen. She wants the sickest patients -- not unusual from a new nurse wanting to jump right into ICU, but she really expects us all to back her up (and basically do 75% of her work while she observes and charts) -- and we do, for the patient's sake. In her two months, she has been out sick for an extended period of time (2 weeks) once already (a shoulder injury outside of work -- couldn't lift), and she has expected us (her coworkers) to accommodate her when she has had to go to urgent care TWICE at the end of her shift in the last 6 weeks for non-work related health problems (once, a bad rash, the other time, to get an epi pen because she was going out of town the following week. So really, we are supposed to cover your leaving 45 minutes early when you could do that on your next day off?) We all know that s#$% happens, but this is getting ridiculous.
I got a feeling we have a bad egg here. Anybody else know someone like this they work with? What did you do?

I agree that you have a bad egg on the unit. And I also believe that she will fry herself because if she thinks that she can just breeze through one year of ICU, without really learning all that one has to learn, she is in for a big surprise. Two months out of orientation and already asking for a recommendation for something, that if she is lucky, won't even be happening for a year or more. She may be book smart, but obviously not smart enough to know that her real learning will be coming from the work she does on the actual unit. If she doesn't take it seriously, not only will she not learn anything, but she might cause harm to a patient. It seems like the other nurses are enabling her if they are indeed doing 75% of her work. This should stop and she needs to pull her own weight. After one year in ICU, even the hardest working and most dedicated nurses I have met, admitted that they had only just begun to "get it".

Cherish · Jul 24, 2010

I'd just like to mention that I think the "entitlement mentality" has much less to do with age than it does with socioeconomic status/upbringing. There are plenty of people in my generation who have grown up lower class/working class, like myself, who have had to work for everything they have. I have worked since I was 14, paid all my personal bills (cell phone, car purchase/payment insurance, clothes, etc.) through high school, moved out at 18, and have never had any financial help since. Actually, I've helped my mother financially while working during college. There hasn't been a day (besides 2 weeks when I moved) in my life I haven't been employed. I don't expect anything to be handed to me, because it never was to begin with, and I know I'm not the only 24 year old who has had this experience.
I think the reason that the entitlement mentality is pinned to a generation, rather than one's SES and upbringing is because it's just easier to recognize someone's age. I really hope that older generations will keep this in mind, as it's upsetting to me to hear that I'm entitled because I'm 24. Although, I guess it's just as frustrating as any stereotype would be...

I also think it is a socioeconomic status or how one was raised. I haven't lived in my moms house since I was 17 and started working at the age of 14. Granted I am 27 now but I have friends that are 25 and under and I see it as how one is raised and their maturity level. The ones who were privileged and were given everything without being asked seemed to have entitlement issues but the ones who were privileged but had to work for everything or the ones who weren't privileged and had to work for everything seem to be more mature, financially responsible and more humble on what they thought the world owed them.

The fact that she called your manager the B word shows her level of maturity and the fact that she has little humility. She could have agreed and had more tact. Maybe even suggested something like could I get a quarterly review and since I have been here 2 months so far do you think next month could be my first review on what I need to improve on, what I am doing correctly, etc., etc. This would have shown more maturity and also responsibility in her new learning environment.

I am a nursing student still so I don't know if they have quarterly reviews at hospitals but I definitely want to do this once I become a nurse because I do plan on becoming an advanced practice nurse (hopefully an Acute Care NP) but I also want to know what I need to work on, what I am doing correctly. By having it in writing the NM could hopefully say your last 3 reviews have shown a great deal of growth from when you were first hired, keep up the good work (a girl could dream right ).

eriksoln, BSN, RN · Jul 24, 2010

Recently was told in confidence by a co-worker that my NM refused to write a brand new (less than 2 months off orientation) ICU nurse in our unit a recommendation for a CRNA program and she was HOPPING MAD, making statements like "My b#$%^ of a nurse manager", etc. etc. This particular nurse is 24 years old and in no way has mastered ICU practice in her two months (from my humble observation, and everyone elses.) I think it makes sense that she didn't write her a recommendation -- how do you do that when you know this person is a novice ICU RN? FYI my NM is not a b@#%(. She is one of the best and fairest bosses I have ever had.
Said nurse is very book smart, but she has a bad work ethic from what I've seen. She wants the sickest patients -- not unusual from a new nurse wanting to jump right into ICU, but she really expects us all to back her up (and basically do 75% of her work while she observes and charts) -- and we do, for the patient's sake. In her two months, she has been out sick for an extended period of time (2 weeks) once already (a shoulder injury outside of work -- couldn't lift), and she has expected us (her coworkers) to accommodate her when she has had to go to urgent care TWICE at the end of her shift in the last 6 weeks for non-work related health problems (once, a bad rash, the other time, to get an epi pen because she was going out of town the following week. So really, we are supposed to cover your leaving 45 minutes early when you could do that on your next day off?) We all know that s#$% happens, but this is getting ridiculous.
I got a feeling we have a bad egg here. Anybody else know someone like this they work with? What did you do?

I can see this may turn into a "new nurse vs. vet. nurse" thing but I'm not going there.

I've known MANY bad apples during my career. Some were vets, some were not. Yes, I think your friend there with the limpy shoulder is on the wrong path at the moment. This does not mean she is destined to be a bad nurse and all. Just means the boat is pointed a few degrees in the wrong direction. Stay on that course and you end up miles away from your destination. But there is much time to learn and correct things in the meantime. Don't discount that she may decide to do so. The refusal to write the letter by your manager could plant the seed necessary to prompt an introspective assessment. Yes, she is slamming the manager in public and all, but her ego took a bruise and that is her putting on the mask of anger to save face. No telling what is truly going on in her head and what she says to herself at home. She may very well be rethinking her approach.

I've known nurses who call in to find out if they are charge nurse or not (at a place where charge didn't take pt. assignments). If they were not, they'd call off to the supervisor 15 min. later. I knew a girl who would spend HOURS documenting an inconsequential incident.......refuse to partake in any pt. care while doing so. I could make a list of the poor coping mechanisms I've seen that would fill your computer hard drive twice. I could also make a similar list, almost as big, describing how many of these people found their niche and the behaviors stopped.

I try to put my personal feelings aside when dealing with people who......eh, don't seem up to snuff and cover said fact up with drama. Most of the time it is a matter of not being in the right place. They figure things out for themselves, move on or make the necessary adjustments and are completely different people. Now, when that time comes, I'd rather them look back and think "Wow, I was behaving so badly this time last year. I did things I would never imagine doing now. I am so lucky all the other nurses were supportive and helped me instead of making things worse." Too often today, people look back on the rough times they had in nursing and think "I would have been fine if not for Nurse X and Y, man, they eat their young, no wonder I was unhappy." All opportunity for introspectively thinking through the past is lost because all they remember is being bashed by their peers.

eriksoln, BSN, RN · Jul 24, 2010

I would also add too that, this particular nurse we are discussing is 24. I don't know about the rest of you, but when I was 24, I had much worse issues going on with respects to my personality and approach to life than "entitlement". Much worse. Heck, work at the ICU? LMAO, I wasn't responsible enough to not bother drinking right up to a few hours before I had to work. Thank goodness I was a landscape laborer and not a nurse at the time. So, yes, her personality may be a bit much to swallow, but she is surviving in the ICU at age 24 (with much help from OP and other co-workers I admit). Point is, she is a heck of a lot further in life at 24 than I was at that age.

Like I started saying in my orig. post, with strong leadership, she will get that ship headed in the right direction. Life will hand her all the "doses of reality" and "blows to the ego" she needs to realize something she is doing is not going to work. When it does, if she trusts the leaders on the unit instead of fearing/resenting them.............very positive changes can be initiated. Its kinda like waiting for an alcoholic to hit bottom and realize a change must be made IMO.

happy2learn · Jul 24, 2010

Letters of recommendation are earned, not just given.

Obviously the NM does not feel this nurse has earned a letter of recommendation, and it sounds rightly so. It's only been 2 months. It does sound as if she's just scraping by and doing her time to get into CRNA school, from what can be seen in the original post.

I don't see an issue with wanting in the ICU for the purpose of CRNA school. I mean, if you go there to learn. It just appears that this nurse feels she is entitled to a letter of recommendation simply because she works in the ICU.

Heck, I'm a volunteer and I have to earn a letter of recommendation. I don't just get them. If I am rude to patients and visitors, you can bet that I'm not getting a letter.

Just because you do the time doesn't mean anything.

ok2bme · Jul 24, 2010

I personally know of 3 who actually told me they have no interest in nursing and just want to get "the necessary evils" done so they can get to that money. I have told them that they have decided on a dangerous path IMHO. They freely admit to seekin NG ICU only for that reason and have no intention of giving ICU the attention it needs. This is scary.

Yeah, it's worse in accelerated BSN programs. I graduated a year ago, and many of my peers had blatantly disrespectful and condescending views of towardes nursing and nurses. They saw nursing as an unfortunate means to the end to being a CRNA. Most of them graduated with honors and 2 of them are now SRNAs. I must add though that I don't think this a bad thing; I think they will make good CRNAs due to their intelligence and passion for the career. Many of us entered for nursing for practical reasons, and/or consider it a stepping stone.

(And before anyone gets butthurt, let me add the generic disclaimer that I know most CRNA hopefuls are not like my former classmates)...

Divergirl · Jul 24, 2010

I personally know of 3 who actually told me they have no interest in nursing and just want to get "the necessary evils" done so they can get to that money. I have told them that they have decided on a dangerous path IMHO. They freely admit to seekin NG ICU only for that reason and have no intention of giving ICU the attention it needs. This is scary.

Ok, so you know of 3. I was a critical care nurse for 10 years before I went to CRNA school. After I was accepted, my fellow co-workers treated me like crap. BTW, CRNA is a practice of nursing and not everyone who decides to go to CRNA school does it just for the money.