Socialized Medicine: The Argument to Support moving forward - page 8
Many people have a misunderstanding that if the government funds health care then THEY control our health care - a concept which in all reality is impossible. What they do provide is funding for... Read More
Aug 28, '09Quote from HushdawgI fail to see why a well-staffed healthcare network is a bad thing.
When the UK papers are filled with horror stories and that their cancer survival rate is decreasing and below the US I think it is a fair statement.
You presently live in a country where the government runs things and nurses are unemployed and the health care is third world. So I do think if we are going to compare we need to look at all aspects.
Aug 28, '09Quote from tewdles"the government will end up pushing private insurance coverage out by making private insurance coverage so expensive that the average person can't afford it.the insurance companies have already accomplished that without the help of the government and as the system is over loaded, decisions will have to be made regarding allocations of services. i'd rather fight with my insurance company. have you ever actually had to do that?... cuz they will drag it out until you no longer have the finances to pay for the fight and they will still not pay.if they **** me off, i still have the freedom to get a different carrier." you will find then that you have a pre-existing condition and it is not easy and not cheap to find an insurance company that will take your money every month so that they can limit your access to healthcare. or perhaps you think they don't limit your access? you must not have a formulary for your prescriptions, or perhaps you have never had a test ordered that the insurance company does not agree is the appropriate test to follow up your cancer treatment. maybe your insurance company doesn't care which md you see or which hospital or lab you use.
the bottom line is this...our present process for accessing and paying for healthcare in this country is in trouble. it costs too much money, is too restrictive, and does not cover enough of the people. in spite of the state of the art technology, training, and facilities we have an unhealthy population with health outcomes that are embarrassing. capitalism is a good thing, it is just not the answer for everything and this is simply one of those things that capitalism cannot improve. the delivery of healthcare for profit is not going to solve any problems with access, availability, and cost. if we want to preserve the small business in america, give them a public insurance option for their employees. if we want to impact the cost of manufacturing in america, reduce the cost of health insurance for those companies.
i have a friend whose 26yr old son, who had no insurance through his work, suffered a case of appendicitis and ruptured his appendix. after an ambulance ride, surgery, icu stay, etc he did the best he could to stay on top of the huge bills with monthly payments, until he got ill with some common thing about a year later (don't remember if it was flu) that kept him out of work for about a week. he ended up filing bankrupcy. thank goodness he did not have a wife or children at the time. i ask myself, what choices did this young man have? how did our current system of healthcare delivery benefit him? it certainly preserved his life at the same time that it devastated him financially. my question is....don't you agree that we can do better?
he had the choice to buy insurance or apply for medicaid he did neither and now in a mess.
Aug 28, '09you are right...he did have the option to purchase health insurance. He decided that he could not afford those premiums, his options represented too much of his montly income for coverage that he decided was too sparse and so he opted to gamble. He was not eligible for medicaid. There are too many people in that very situation. The point is this....the fact that this type of scenario happens ROUTINELY causes a huge financial burden for ALL of us when it comes to healthcare. Healthcare costs us 16% of our GDP now and will continue to grow unless we do something to help people like this young man. We need to have a system that provides AFFORDABLE health insurance options for everyone. With our current system the choices are not good for people who need to have insurance outside of a large employer. I believe that too many people may be under the impression that insurance is sort of standard...one as good as another. That would explain why they think that you are sort of "all set" if you have bought insurance. Of course, we know that the plight of the under-insured is just a significant as that of the uninsured. The under-insured have huge financial burdens from medical cause, just like the uninsured. The bankrupcy rate for medical cause is far from being limited to the uninsured. The primary cause is not that people dont want insurance, the primary cause is that people do not believe that they have a good affordable option. I ask again...don't you agree that we can do better?
Aug 29, '09I will be traveling and will have limited internet access. I personally believe this is a great subject to debate. I respect everyone's viewpoint. I don't think I have used the words " you are wrong, or you are unethical and other hostile words". I would ask that others extend the same right to opposing views and keep the talk about the issues and not make judgments.
People who have legally immigrated here do have a "dog in the fight" and have a view point which is very needed. What I am trying to understand, it is my impression many nurses came to the USA for a better way of life which they felt they could achieve in the USA. I have been to the UK three times, and the population seems to have a great quality of life. The country is beautiful and the people have a warm heart. My impression the reason the nurses came from the UK to the USA multi variant, but working condition for nurses in the UK seem to have some issues and working conditions in their native country was one. Now I have to wonder why these nurses want create a system similar in the USA, it confuses me. If these nurses came for non nursing issues with a radical change in health care it will effect the American way of life.
I am all for democracy, it is the system.Many posters have told me Health Care is a right. That maybe your personal belief and you have a 100% right to believe it should be. Our congressional leaders have bills presently to make this an amendment,my understand of the law is limited, but common sense tells me that it is not a right or why would congress be trying to make this amendment.
I live in a state where there are laws protecting consumers that are enforced. Everyone has to be offered healthcare at work at a reasonable price. There are no pre existing clauses, the insurance can't be canceled due to previous illness. The state make affordable plans for people who don't have access at work. I feel no need for an overall to my healthcare. Insurance companies have to be paid and pay out their claims within 90 days. If a clinical issue is denied there is a process that has less then a 24 hour appeal process. Most citizens have insurance either private or through the state - high 90 %. I would have no issue with this being a national model.
Unlike other countries where the cost of education is affordable doctors and nurses have huge loans to pay off. If the country changes to a socialized system it is going to cripple these providers and very quickly we will have to change the educational system to meet a socialize process. I don't think this has been addressed in anything I have read.
Howard Dean said yesterday, that taking on the lawyers with this issue would be too much, yet that is a force that drives up health care. My opinion this needs to be addressed since my understanding in a socialized system you are limited to who you can sue.
I have also read that Canadian Doctors are stating the system is imploding. There are horror stories being written about the UK and France. Due to the economic situation these systems are being stress and do not reflect true systems which usually function well. I bring this point up since I don't think this is the time to make radical change without think through all the issues.
Sorry to ramble on, I have learned from this discussion, as nurses we all bring unique life experiences to this board. If you disagree with a poster, remember that is their experience and opinion and have the right to discuss it. Thank you all for sharing your beliefs.Last edit by Ginger's Mom on Aug 29, '09
Aug 29, '09Quote from HushdawgToo bad, under the current system insurance companies make decisions for you all the time in determining what qualifies and what does not for coverage. They do it based on profit margins, if health care was socialized then it would be on the basis of need and medical assessment; doesn't that sound like a more appropriate litmus test?
So you don't trust the government to do anything under any administration?
I trust government to change as the will and need of the people change.
I trust that under the current system people will continue to suffer and die.
We must change things in order to improve them.
Yes, Medicare and Medicaid are cumbersome and difficult to deal with.
Yes, VA hospitals are grossly underfunded.
Yes, Military healthcare is slow to secondary recipients.
That is all true.
However, those systems will no longer be needed under a universal healthcare program.
Wipe off the board and rebuild a newer, better structure.
Change is the only thing that can help us to progress.
Healthcare as it is only serves the wealthy and middle class. I have had more interviews than I care to remember or relate of families all over the USA who appeal for financial assistance; all of whom ran into bankruptcy and lost their homes because of medical bills.
This is not freedom that my ancestors fought and died for.
If the government can run the laundry list above how will it manage Universal Care? I don't think the bill I read eliminates any of the above, VA and Medicare will remain with less funding. Read the bill. I have also done thousands of interviews with families with no insurance, once connect with Medicaid they got services that as a middle class person did not have like a home health aide after surgery, food stamps, and housing. It sounds like the people you interviewed did not have good social workers helping and connecting them for services. According to your bio, you have been out of the USA for eight years and polices change.
Personally I think saving my life is worth going bankrupt over. I had a major medical issue which occurred right after my parents both died, needless to say I was not in a good place financially. I was able to budget and keep up with all my bills. Once the crisis was over my husband and I worked two jobs and paid off our debts. We could have final bankruptcy but all it took was hard work. I know the high quality health care I had saved my life.
I don't feel that I should pay for people who mismanage their funds. And by the way my husband and I supported my parents financially, physically and emotionally through their illness without any government support.Last edit by madwife2002 on Aug 29, '09 : Reason: pm sent
Aug 29, '09I am enjoying the debate on here and value everybodies opinion but I do ask for us all to respect each other and try hard not to personalise when somebody doesnt agree. Thank you all once again for such interesting points of view
Aug 29, '09http://allnurses-central.com/world-n...ut-419176.html
Read the link on this thread very enlightening
Aug 29, '09Thanks for the link. One issue I have not all states have plans with pre existing exclusions ( perhaps that is an issue since every state has it's own rules), also the friends I have in the UK state there is a postal code issue ( meaning some postal codes have better services than others).
The bigger issue that no US legislator has addressed is all the law suits which drive costs up.
I do agree US Healthcare has to change... I am not sold socialized medicine is the way to go, but it is certainly interesting to discuss.
Aug 30, '09I think the discussion and debate has been interesting. Many of the posts have been based on someone's political ideology, in my opinion. My thought is that the provision of health care has moral ramifications that outweigh the economics and politics of it.
You can not have a robust, competitive country of people who are spiritually, physically, and mentally fit unless you have a country of people with access to the best that health care has to offer. To have the type of access to health care that all the citizenry of the U.S. needs to stay strong and competitive and even improve our standing among civilized countries in terms of our health status means that something radical needs to be done with health care.
The turf wars and politics need to be pushed aside and once and for all, it needs to be decided whether access to quality health care is a right or a priviledge. If we truly value life from womb to grave or from cradle to grave, then why are we debating whether to provide access for everyone to get quality health care. I'm confused that on the one hand we can say, "our children are our future", "life begins in the womb" and so on, but many of us refuse to help cover our children. It does seem a little hypocritic to be bantering back and forth about the economics and politics of health care coverage when our country is morally and defensively falling apart at the seams. After all, some of us are willing to insure our pets in lieu of contributing to the needs of the poor which morally we are called to do.
I think it is important for us as health care providers and supporters to pull out all the health care legislation on the table and put it side by side and vote. Doing nothing is not an option. If we come up with socialized medicine as the best way to be inclusive of everyone than so be it. However, there need to be stipulations for those who we feel are seemingly getting "free" health care unlike there was when the program called welfare was instituted. As far as the VA is concerned, I personally do not have issues with supporting our Vets or our troops through a specialized program. If they are not getting adequate care in that program, then it needs to be ramped up.
Aug 30, '09I agree with your point that we need to sort out if health care is a right or not.. If a right then the government has to be the principle provider. In one way the bill jump ahead - this needs to be decided.
Aug 30, '09Quote from MedSurg32RNWait, you don't take stock in the World Health Organization?I personally do not put too much stock in WHO data or the NY Times. Why don't you start building a perfect world where you live now and the US can copy it!
That's such a bizzare thing to say on so many levels.
NY Times, okay fine.. you like Fox News and want to take that avenue.. but to deny research and statistics from a global organization is just surreal.
Let me ask you a question then; what data do you use to determine that the USA has the best healthcare available and that there is no need to change?
Aug 30, '09Quote from MedSurg32RNI am an American Citizen; almost all of my family and those I love are living in the USA.Interesting, you do not live in the USA, but what to tell me how much I need to pay in taxes. I have had a personal incident with a socialize healthcare, so I know how bad and how long the consequences of bad care can be. I rather face bankruptcy and live then die.
I plan to return to the USA within 4-5 years; my life in the Philippines is temporary and I have only been here for two years. So please; stop treating me like I am completely insensitive and out of touch with what is going on in the USA.
I have had multiple very bad incidents with US healthcare as it stand now, I know how bad and how long the consequences of that bad care has been. Incidents with myself, my family and those I've had to help through humanitarian resources.
Quote from MedSurg32RNI'm not talking about those who have spent money like water. I'm talking about average families with average incomes and normal spending habits being knocked out of financial stability from a single hospital stay.Many people who have filed for bankruptcy lived why beyond their means. Now you want me to pay for their irresponsible behavior.
I have hundreds of stories...
One that burns in my mind is a man who worked for a Fortune 500 company as a data analyst. His company provided him "platinum level" insurance.
While traveling in another state, he was involved in an accident which damaged his eyes and left his right hand shattered. As a result he could no longer perform his job.
The "platinum" healthcare insurance he had refused to care for more than half of his treatments as they considered reconstructive surgury on his hand and wrist to be "elective" and they considered his eyes to be sufficient for work even though he is now severely limited.
There were treatments he could have recieved to preserve portions of his sight but the insurance company denied him.
Within 3 years of this event he and his family were completely bankrupt, he and his wife both working full time to support themselves and children, although he is stuck at a minimum wage job.
His insurance's lack of coverage is directly responsible for his condition, they charged the highest rates for his co-pay and refused to cover many necissary procedures because he was in another state or because an attending doctor was not "in network."
Had he been in a situation involving socialized healthcare then he would have gotten the treatments he needed at a minimal out of pocket expense and even if he'd still lost his sight, he would have at least had the chance to have procedures that were denied to him under the current system.
Unfortunately the best that our resources were able to do was to connect him with an optical surgeon to partially restore sight in one eye and get him a better job and some start-up money.
So society still pays the burden of our broken and shattered healthcare system because humanitarian aid organizations (donations given by Americans) have to divert funding to helping heal households damaged by the greed machines that run health insurance.
Half of the amount of money spent by NGOs annually could be used by the US Government to facilitate socialized healthcare... so the American taxpayers are already paying the burden; just through other avenues.
That's what you don't see.. what you can't see because only the NGOs really get to see these figures.