Should we curtail the growth of nursing programs?

[MikeyBSN]

Although nursing was considered a "good" job when I started, it was nothing like what is being promoted today. After the economy crashed, I have seen an explosion in nursing program advertisements. There are new nursing programs opening all the time and I have recently seen programs advertising getting a degree faster than any other program. Personally, I think this is bad for nursing. Because of federal financial aid, these schools can and do recruit anyone who wants a job; not anyone who wants to be a nurse. Not only does this diminish the nursing talent that we have, it also floods the market. Just take a look at the unemployed nurses posting on here constantly. We have all seen this with other professions that were once "hot". People rush into them, hate what they're doing, flood the market, and move on. I, for one, do not want to see the for-profit American Colleges destroy yet another profession. Yes we need more nurses in the future, but we should limit the number of nursing programs to the projected growth. Is this protectionism? Perhaps. But I think that a little bit of nursing protectionism is okay in the face of a large amount of "big education" greed.

[Heidi the nurse, BSN, RN]

People fail to realize that nursing programs do not need to be accredited by the NLNAC or CCNE. Accreditation is something that is additional and voluntary to ensure that the nursing program has certain standards. Believe me when I say that there are masses of unaccredited nursing programs (mostly, these are the for-profit schools).

Nursing programs need to be approved to operate by the state board of nursing, but accreditation is not mandatory. In addition, many RNs and LPNs attended unaccredited schools, but were able to attain licensure because their school of nursing was merely approved to operate by the BON.

Our state requires graduation from an accredited school to get a license. Are you saying people are able to go to a non-credited school and still get a license in your state? Maybe thats where curtailing of nurses needs to start, not stopping programs from opening.

[TheCommuter, BSN, RN]

Our state requires graduation from an accredited school to get a license. Are you saying people are able to go to a non-credited school and still get a license in your state? Maybe thats where curtailing of nurses needs to start, not stopping programs from opening.

I am licensed in three different states (Texas, California, and Oklahoma), and none of these BONs mandate school accreditation. They only require that the school of nursing is approved to operate.

Your profile page indicates that you are in Washington state. I looked up the licensure requirements and, while approval is mentioned, the DOH webpage mentions nothing about accreditation by the NLNAC or CCNE. In addition, I looked at a list of approved schools in Washington state. Virtually all of the LPN programs are unaccredited. Some of the RN programs lack accreditation, especially if it is offered through a trade school or technical college.

http://www.doh.wa.gov/hsqa/professions/publications/documents/credreqs.pdf

http://www.doh.wa.gov/hsqa/professions/nursing/documents/ApprovedSchools.pdf

[Heidi the nurse, BSN, RN]

I looked them up too - and if you looked at my profile page (and my "graduate date") you will also see that I graduated 20 years ago. Don't know for sure, but have always been under the impression that in order to take the boards, the school had to be accredited. Heck, when I graduated we were just years away from hospital trained nurses. The only constant thing about nursing is change. Don't mean to offend.

Peace.

[DoGoodThenGo]

Not having much luck finding a graph like for the teacher or doctors, but found this from 2008

"The age of registered nurses has been consistently rising for the fast 20 years. Almost 45 percent of registered nurses were 50 years or older, a large increase from 33 percent in 2000. The majority of registered nurses, 84.8 percent, are actively working in their field with 63.2 working full time. Of the nurses working full time, more than 75 percent of them are under the age of 30. As nurses age, they report that they are less likely to be working in nursing positions. In fact, after the age of 50, the shares of registered nurses tend to drop for each age group, from 87.5 percent of nurses in the 50 to 54 age range to 85.1 percent of those in the 55 to 59 range."

http://www.rncentral.com/nursing-library/Registered_Nurses_Characteristics_of_the_Workforce

So I would think RNs not retiring is part of the equation, it doesn't explain the trending for the last 20 years. I am almost 50, and am planning to go back and get my Masters, figuring I have 20 years left in me. Not really looking forward to working until almost 70, but a girls gotta do what a girls gotta do.

Has it not occured to anyone that the average age for RNs has much to do with several factors:

First, if she is in her forties or fifties now, this means the nurse in question graduated nursing school and started her career in the 1980's or early 1990's, which was when "managed care" and the other upheavals in healthcare forced out (there really isn't a better way of putting it), many senior nurses in favour of new grads. Those then new grads are now "senior' nurses reaping the rewards (finally some might say) of the demand for their experience. By the way not all those "senior" nurses given the push were "old", just that they were expensive due to mainly the fact they had senority.

Next consider how a woman's life has changed over the past 20 years. Marriage rates ares are down. Catching much less keeping a husband is harder work than it used to be. So many nurses are either out of choice or necessity *have* to work. Even for happily married nurses the economy has changed so much during this "down turn" that their husbands cannot find any work, much less anything that brings in what they are used to; so as has happend before a nurse dusts off her "cap and whites" and goes back to work to put meat on the table.

Consider also nursing school enrollment was going down into the sewers from about the 1980's until really rather recently. This has lead to the "nursing shortage" we hear so much about (which never really was totally true, but we're not on that right now). as there wasn't enough new grads to replace nurses who left the floors/units.

If it weren't for the (some what) better pay all the shouting from the housetops about the "nursing shortage" and the profession being a "safe and steady career) would have fallen upon all the same deaf ears as before. A nurse's hands still go the same places they always have, and her nose still has to deal with the same smells, and lord knows hospitals aren't by and large aren't any easier to deal with, but the pay is better, and that is all some persons see.

[DoGoodThenGo]

Like someone said in another post, all other fields are "controlled" ie doctors, pharmacists, lawyers etc... why didn't the nursing profession control how many nurses are being pumped out when obviously it is un needed (as of now)?

Don't know how "controlled" the law profession is, I mean anyone with the proper grades and funds can go to law school. Once that is over all that remains is topass the bar exam.

Indeed the NYT amoung other media sources has been doing an investigation/reporting on the hundreds of law school grads coming out each of the past few years with totally no prospects. Things got even worse during the economic recession when many law firms stopped the little hiring they had been doing.

Many "white shoe" firms are either closing, and or shrinking leaving newly minted attorneys with fewer and fewer options. Many of them have student loan debts near or over the hudreds of thousands.

[Ruthfarmer]

Too many schools = too many nurses = too many applicants for too few nursing positions = unsafe conditions for patients and staff. WHY? If a nurse dares to address a concern regarding unsafe conditions, the nurse is told, "If you don't like it, you are welcome to find another job." Why? The employer has dozens upon dozens of applications from desperate nurses looking for work. Most nurses will NOT address unsafe conditions because they know that rocking the boat will lose them their job and they have children who need to eat. I have seen this time and time and time again in the SE United States.

[Heidi the nurse, BSN, RN]

All I can say is this board has been an eye opener for me. Until last March, I was in my own little bubble doing my thing, just like I have for the last 20 years. The lead nurse in the school district I work for teachers part time at a local private university (with a religous affiliation - don't believe it is a "for profit") and another teaches at one of the state universities doing a couple classes. Both have mentioned a nurse educator shortage, and resulting lack of classes for nursing students. Perhaps that is just a local thing, but I assumed it was a national problem. And the idea that new nurses weren't finding jobs really surpised me. Our hospitals appear to have as many openings as they did the last time I looked a year or so ago, but I never looked into them in more depth to see if expericence was needed.

There was a comment a couple pages back about new grads being too picky and not looking in places like nursing homes. I hope that is the case. I have two daughters who are still pretty young (!0 and 11) and both have expressed interest in nursing. It doesn't look like the prospects are very good and in 10 or 15 years perhpas worse. That would be unfortunate.

[Heidi the nurse, BSN, RN]

Don't know how "controlled" the law profession is, I mean anyone with the proper grades and funds can go to law school. Once that is over all that remains is topass the bar exam.

Indeed the NYT amoung other media sources has been doing an investigation/reporting on the hundreds of law school grads coming out each of the past few years with totally no prospects. Things got even worse during the economic recession when many law firms stopped the little hiring they had been doing.

Many "white shoe" firms are either closing, and or shrinking leaving newly minted attorneys with fewer and fewer options. Many of them have student loan debts near or over the hudreds of thousands.

Back when I graduated the first time in 1985 with a degree in art history, my parents suggested I look into law school to carry on with my education. I did, and found that many new grads didn't have jobs. My cousin graduated from law school about 10 years ago and had difficulty - he told me he was really glad he had no interest in being a trial lawyer because the job outlook in that was horrible. So the idea that lawyers "control" the number of schools or graduates or whatever doesn't make sense to me.