Shooting at nurse's college in Tuscon, AZ?? - page 16

I am watching FOXNews and they just reported they have received a "bulletin" about a shooting at a nursing college in Tuscon. They will break in more more news as they get it. Two women have been... Read More

  1. by   abrenrn
    One more thing -

    I agree with Youda, by the way, I think Vegas and Suzi rock - even if I disagree with you.

    Thanks, Suzi.
  2. by   Q.
    Originally posted by abrenrn
    it.

    If I were a lawyer, I would have no ammunition to use against members of this board. I would have a whole lot of ammunition to use against the College of Nursing, I think.

    Sometimes it's just simply the fault of the killer and no one else: not the victims, not the students, not the college.
  3. by   LasVegasRN
    Originally posted by abrenrn
    ...The fact that members of the school are saying they knew he was violent for a long time, suspected he was violent is a bit different, I think. Given the degree of suspicion of violence being reported, one wonders why something wasn't done to prevent it.

    If I were a lawyer, I would have no ammunition to use against members of this board. I would have a whole lot of ammunition to use against the College of Nursing, I think.

    I'm glad you seem to agree with this.
    Actually, I didn't agree at first, but you make a good point. Now I see where you were coming from.. that's the great thing about debates!
  4. by   abrenrn
    Ah, Vegas, yes it is.

    I am sincere when I ask you to point out things I missed, like before. I'm not perfect, strive to come closer, and things like that help.

    Well, when I'm PMSing I surely don't strive. Not perfect at all.
  5. by   Youda
    Big Sigh!

    I have not said I condone Flores' behavior.
    I have not said that I condone violence.
    In fact, I have said just the opposite.
    Ditto to all of Stargazer's posts.

    I *am* saying that there are more causes for this kind of thing than just "unbalanced" or "guns" or wherever you want to say the blame lies. Nothing is ever that simple.

    Just as we can infer that a crazy person would expect to be called crazy after premeditated murder, we can also infer that bullys will deny all responsibility and claim innocence. This, unfortunately, follows the pattern of the bullying syndrome. The day I hear someone say, "maybe I could have . . ." that is the day I will know the entire truth is a little closer to the surface.

    The bullying syndrome will always make the person out to be crazy, until they eventually ARE crazy. Offering help doesn't help, because the help is just more abuse, more denial. Instead of taking the complaints and concerns seriously, the "help" tells the person that his/her concerns have no meaning or reality, therefore he/she must be crazy and wrong.

    Psychiatric help is given because a person has been invalidated and concerns minimalize so long, that, yes, they start to act crazy and angry, because they are BECOMING crazy. The students being afraid of him follows the pattern. He WAS getting desperate and angry. Most definitely. I am not disputing that the guy was dangerous OR crazy. I am saying that he didn't walk into that program that way. He walked into that program full of hope and promise.

    There's a very small percentage of people who are born sociopaths. Most are Made In The U.S.A.

    No, Suzy, you don't understand bullying, or you wouldn't make some of the statements you've made. It's far more complex.

    I won't change anyone's minds here, just as you won't change mine. So, I think I'll bow out of this discussion and let you all have the board to talk unopposed.
  6. by   LasVegasRN
    Originally posted by Youda
    ..I won't change anyone's minds here, just as you won't change mine. So, I think I'll bow out of this discussion and let you all have the board to talk unopposed.
    Youda, please don't bow out! Your viewpoint is just as valid as everyone elses. By presenting all of these different viewpoints it serves to enlighten and encourage understanding.

    You opinions have value, don't discount them just because some disagree. C'mon back now...ya hear?
  7. by   Mkue
    Some of my instructors have made comments that the College will most likely be sued by the families.

    There is evidence that Flores bullied and threatened these instructors and there are witnesses.

    He portrayed himself as a victim in his letter, I could not drudge up an ounce of sympathy for any of his problems.

    If in fact he did threaten and harass these instructors, no wonder they tried to avoid him. How many months did they "fear" for their lives? Flores life was only in danger of his own hands.
  8. by   Q.
    Originally posted by Youda
    No, Suzy, you don't understand bullying, or you wouldn't make some of the statements you've made. It's far more complex.

    I won't change anyone's minds here, just as you won't change mine. So, I think I'll bow out of this discussion and let you all have the board to talk unopposed.
    Youda, will all due respect, I can understand bullying and NOT agree with it. To state that I don't understand a topic because I don't agree with it is really not justifiable.


    Also, the point to a debate or discussion is not to "win" but to hear other's views, and challenge their beliefs. I am secure in my beliefs so I will be vocal about them. No one wants to have the board to themselves to talk "unopposed" as you suggest. It seems that when we oppose YOU is where the conflict arises. Life is boring when we all agree.
  9. by   abrenrn
    This discussion for some reason, made me think of a play I saw by David Mamet called "Oleanna". I later saw the movie.

    While discussion of a play may seem out of place in this forum, I would like to paste a review I found by a reader on Amazon.com:

    Reviewer: Aaron Belmer from Illinois
    I am a college student. I just finished Oleanna by David Mamet. I'll never ever ever sit in a meeting with another teacher again. Enough said. Or is it.... This play is so original and thought provoking that I was screaming at the characters out loud as I read. The most interesting thing about this work is the fact that of the two characters, EACH ARE RIGHT IN THEIR OWN WAY, AND EACH ARE WRONG IN THEIR OWN WAY. the question remains: WHOM DO YOU FEEL PITY FOR? Who is right and who is wrong? THE BREAKDOWN OF HUMAN COMMUNICATION IS THE SADDEST THING TO COME OF OUR NEW AGE SOCIETY. Read this play, it will change how you view a lot of things. Kinda scary.

    When I saw this play and the movie later, I felt very much the same way. This play has led to very heated debates among people who have seen it and identified with one side more than the other.

    Is it surprising that a real life incident leaves us more emotional in our posts, less restrained in our words? I suspect not. It is hard to maintain a reasonable voice when one identifies strongly with one party or the other.

    Perhaps we should try to restrain our emotions as much as possible and forgive each other when we are not able to.

    I have seen that happening on this thread. It gives me hope. I try to restrain but fail at times. Others do as well.

    I think the sharing of points of view, the abilty to hear them all is most important.

    I also know I am not things that have not been said already. Really just clarifying for myself.

    People have mentioned the Golden Rule before. I would like to add, "forgve us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

    Thanks all, for sharing.
  10. by   sanakruz
    Originally posted by Stargazer
    Vegas and Youda: smoochies! :kiss


    JMP and Susy, I am not for a moment discounting Flores's personal responsibilty in this. At the moment he decided to carry a gun into the school, at the moment he decided to pull that trigger-- that decision, that responsibility, became his. All his. His error, his sin, his crime. I honestly don't think a one of us who has posted here feels differently.

    Perhaps where we differ is that I think all the events leading up to that one moment have equal weight --NOT to absolve the shooter, or to blame the victims, but to identify some of the contributing factors, because I guarantee you that there are other people right now, this very moment, who are facing the same problems and the same pressures-- and I want to make damned sure they don't end up in the same place Flores did.

    Everyone deals with tragedy differently. Like I said, I am a problem-solver by nature. It gives me no comfort to simply assign blame and walk away. I need to understand why it happened, to look at the systems in place and where they broke down, and talk about how to change things for the better so this never happens again. That is how I deal. And I think it's more productive than the blame game.

    Nightngale: thanks for your kind words. Oddly enough, it wasn't painful to talk about. But it's been a lot of years and I didn't give many details. And frankly, there's nothing like a tragedy of this magnitude to put my one terrible semester, no matter how hellish, in perspective.
    You nailed it, stargazer
  11. by   rncountry
    Wow, you guys have been busy while I was working.
    I don't feel that Flores is a martyr, anymore than I felt the boys at Columbine were. I do however feel that there are valid issues that should be looked at in an unvanished way. Again in the same way I felt the incident at Columbine needed to be, as well as school shootings that followed.
    The issue that Youda keeps coming back to, Bullying. When someone has been in that situation it bears recalling that there is s feeling of total loss of control over your life. What I think we need to remember here is that each of us can recall incidents in our schooling and in our nursing careers in which bullying and intimidation was allowed to happen, in some cases encouraged against others as if it were appropriate. This phenomenon is a HUGE problem in the nursing profession. I am not saying it does not take place in other professions, but I truly believe it is almost endemic to the nursing culture. I am not attempting to assign blame to the nursing instructors, I am making broad statements regarding the culture in which we were inducted into in nursing school. Nearly all of us have related incidents in school and in the profession that have the same tone as the incidents related in Flores letter. I do not in any way condone what Flores did. I can say that I can relate to the frustrations he had and the incidents he related.
    I do believe that if he was so uncomfortable to be around, and all the things that are in the Arizonia Star article about Flores are correct, I have to wonder what the college of nursing was doing. Not doing homework? Then why was he continuing? I know Suzy you will tell me because they were afraid, and I have to ask then, if they were afraid what about patients he took care of? Did the school not have a responsiblity to protect their instructors, the students as well as patients? This has nothing to do with individual instructors, but the college itself. Why no heart to heart talk with the police dept? If he inspired such fear and then told a class that he had a concealed weapons permit then stared the class down and you were in that class what would you have done? Would you not have at least gone to the head of the nursing program and been vocal about something with substance being done? I would have. I go back to Columbine and recall that there were many warning signs that people ignored. The vast majority of people are not going to take a gun and shot others because of their frustrations, but there are some. By ignoring the warning signs tragedies will continue to occur. When Columbine occured the media focused on the trenchcoats, the video games etc... what they didn't seem to understand was that those things were outward expressions of the anger and upset the shooters were feeling. They were not a cause.
    I still feel that the bullying and intimidation tactics used in nursing schools, the arbitary enforcing of rules, or making up ones as they go along did contribute to this situation. I have no doubt in my mind that the perceptions the students had of this man were right on target. What I am saying is that given this along with the way nursing programs are run an awful thing happened. I think it is a mistake to write him off as some off the wall wacko without considering that nearly all of us have identified the same issues in our own nursing programs, as well as our profession.
    I found it crap that after the various school shootings the solution was to bring in metal detectors and such, without addressing the often times cruel ways that kids treat one another. Too often we expect our children to put up with situations in school that we as adults would never put up with at work without filling a hostile work environment suit, or at least threatening to. I am afraid the same thing will happen here. Instead of taking a real life look at the way student nurses are too often treated, not to mention taking a hard look at whether someone is appropriate to the profession regardless of grades, the whole thing will be treated as a madman on the loose that everyone was so afraid of that nothing was done.
    All of us are products of our environment as well as our inherent personalities. I don't condone a child who murders a parent after repeated abuse or the spouse who murders because of abuse. I can however understand why they felt that was the only way out. It has only been little by little and through massive education of the public that child abuse and spousal abuse was made illegal and punishable, as well as providing avenues out of the situation. Right now what protections are there for a nursing students who have experienced, as most of us have related here, abusive and non educational environments that seem inherent in nursing programs? The same as there are in facilities were the behavior is allowed to continue. Nothing. The boatrocker, the outspoken nurse is ostrasized, written up and too often either driven from the mileu or fired. There are too many posts on this board to say that does not occur, or even that it is too the few this happens to. Imagine if nurses didn't feel so threatened to speak up what could potentially change not only in the nursing profession but in healthcare in general. We have the power to be movers and shakers in healthcare in general but there is a fear there that does not allow most to break out of. It is not enough to say, if the job or the school is so awful leave. Because the same scenios present themselves over and over in other schools and facilities.
    That was the biggest point I was trying to make. Not that the shooter should be made a martyr, or that the instructors were the wicked witch of the west, but that there is a tolerance and encouragement in too many cases of behavior that should be inappropriate, but that is instead considered normal and appropriate ways to treat nursing students and later nurses on the floor. If so many of us did not see and feel the same things as the shooter did than I would not feel this way. Thank God 99.9% of us will never pick up a gun and shot someone because of it. Instead we will become depressed, anxious, unable to finish school, unable to continue in nursing, or unable to see a way out of nursing and continue to live a life that comes in shades of gray instead of experiencing the joys of life. The anger and frustration will become internalized, and people who feel this way are not able to take care of patients to the best of their ability, not to mention themselves and their families. This is not the way it should be. And it is not the way most professions are conducted. I am not lauding a man for murdering three people, I am suggesting that the incident should shed a little light on the problems of nursing programs. I wonder how many people are out there that could have become good nurses in a time we desperately need them, but walked away from the profession because of the **** they had to endure just to get through school? It is a question that begs an answer.
  12. by   sanakruz
    WOW_ This is powerful stuff. I'm going to the bullying link now. I LOVE YOU GUYS!!!!!:kiss
  13. by   Mkue
    Originally posted by rncountry
    I wonder how many people are out there that could have become good nurses in a time we desperately need them, but walked away from the profession because of the **** they had to endure just to get through school? It is a question that begs an answer.
    Great post.. this especially caught my eye.

    Good question.

    I've seen many excellent students walk away quietly due to the crap they refuse to put up with. Programs are becoming harder to get into, more courses are being added to the curriculum and some courses are dropped (after you have taken them). Grading scales are raised to the point where an "A" will soon be 100% or nothing.

    Nurses who graduated from my program years ago say their standards were much lower and yet they passed the dreaded NCLEX. What used to be a 2 year (4 semester) associate degree is turning into a 3-4 year associate degree. The programs are longer which just delays the torture. Lowering the standard is not the answer by any means, there has to be a better way to reach their goal.

    Well that's my .02, I wish I knew why there is so much sh-- to put up with. There is actually more than any human can bear sometimes and it's not worth losing self-esteem and dignity, etc.

    Once again, it is a very good question.



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