per diem and night shift pay difference? just curious?

Glimpsethepast · Nov 18, 2011

At the hospital I am employed with we recieve an additional amt added to our hourly wage for our 12 night shifts AND for working Saturdays and Sundays regardless if it is a day shift or night shift.

GM2RN · Nov 19, 2011

Some per diem or contingent contracts require a certain portion of weekends and holidays to be worked.

Yes, but those that do tend not to require much. At my hospital you only need to schedule two 8 hour weekend shifts per month, and they don't need to be on the same weekend. You also only have to sign up for 2 holidays per year and you get to pick which ones you want to sign up for. In the case of weekends you could be called off or staff adjusted during the shift, but as long as you scheduled your shifts it counts toward your obligation. Same with holidays. Senority staff gets to choose whether or not they want to work because it's double time and most of them will choose to work, so per diem rarely has to work on a holiday unless they choose a major one like Christmas or Thanksgiving. And like with weekends, if per diem gets called off it still counts toward their obligation.

Another hospital where I currently work PRN has no minimum obligation at all.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Nov 19, 2011

thanks for the replies. What about if you work a 12 hour shift? Do you get overtime if it's a unionized hospital? I'm wondering if a per diem position is worth it if it's close to where I live, compared to a hospital that is full time with benefits but an hour commute.
I'm just a new grad curious about random things!

The way a hospital pays you is as diverse as the ethnic backgrounds that live in the United States.. The Federal labor laws http://www.dol.gov/whd/ have certain protections and the states unions and facilities have other individual regulations but cannot break Federal Law.

There are facilities that the per-diems don't get differential as their base is greater....Other facilities do pay per-diems differential. The facility I can speak for that is Union does NOT pay OT if you work 12 hours "scheduled" but has a provision if you are asked to stay an extra four hours it is OT as per their contract. I know of NO hospitals that pay OT for your "scheduled" 12 hour shifts if you are under the 40 hours limit if you are paid hourly. The hospital doesn't "guarantee" hours per-se but a Union contract does.

In today's economy your job search and options maybe more limited than you realize as many nurses and new grads cannot find work but if I were you.....the full time position with benefits totals more than any per-diem position....benefits especially health care are VERY expensive to have independently...I'd take the benefits.

Wave Watcher · Nov 19, 2011

States such as California pay daily overtime for anything over 8 hours. Therefore, some CA hospitals pay overtime for the last 4 hours of a 12 hour shift.

I need to move to California!

Where I worked we were paid every 2 weeks. So if you could work 60 hrs one week and 20hrs the next you would not receive overtime. They scheduled nurses for 4 12hr shifts each week....they got their moneys worth.

GM2RN · Nov 19, 2011

The way a hospital pays you is as diverse as the ethnic backgrounds that live in the United States.. The Federal labor laws http://www.dol.gov/whd/ have certain protections and the states unions and facilities have other individual regulations but cannot break Federal Law.
There are facilities that the per-diems don't get differential as their base is greater....Other facilities do pay per-diems differential. The facility I can speak for that is Union does NOT pay OT if you work 12 hours "scheduled" but has a provision if you are asked to stay an extra four hours it is OT as per their contract. I know of NO hospitals that pay OT for your "scheduled" 12 hour shifts if you are under the 40 hours limit if you are paid hourly. The hospital doesn't "guarantee" hours per-se but a Union contract does.
In today's economy your job search and options maybe more limited than you realize as many nurses and new grads cannot find work but if I were you.....the full time position with benefits totals more than any per-diem position....benefits especially health care are VERY expensive to have independently...I'd take the benefits.

I agree with this, especially if you have a choice between two firm offers of jobs, one per diem and the other FT. But if you have no offers besides a per diem job right now, taking the per diem job hurts nothing and can give you some money in your pocket while you continue to pursue a FT position. AND to reiterate, you would be in a position to bid on internal jobs with a per diem position--something you couldn't do if you didn't take the job.

Just thought I'd add that the reason I'm so passionate about this is because it's how I was able to get the FT position that I have now. I started as a PRN float where I currently work FT. When a position became available that I wanted in the ED, I was able to get it because I already worked there and management already new that I was a good employee, able to do the job. I just don't see the downside to taking a per diem job while you continue to look for FT.

NJnurse01 · Nov 21, 2011

Hi! I just recently switched to a per diem position from my full time position because I figured i dont get any benefits from them (by choice) so why not get paid more being a per diem? So yes, i got paid my 7dlrs more, but the hassle of being the first to get pulled to another floor and the first to be cancelled as well is not fun. luckily I can still switch back to my old position without losing my seniority. We have a lot of per diems where i work and i can tell you they get most of the bad patients/heavy patients first.

I have a question, are per diems working over 40 hrs entitled to ovetime 1 1/2 rate?

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Nov 21, 2011

there are 2 ways that businesses are allowed to pay "hourly" employees according to the dol (department of labor)......an 8/80 (paid every two weeks) so that you are paid for anything over 8 hours in a week and 80 hours every two. examlpe: it is overtime if you work over 8 hours in a 24 hour period and overtime if you work over 80 hours in a 14 day period. the employee would not get paid overtime twice. example: employee works a total of 81 hours in 14 day pay week. one day they worked 10 hours so they would receive 2 hours overtime for the 10 hour day and since the 10 hour day created the over 80 hours the employee would not receive an additional 1 hour overtime. so, overtime would apply after working 8 hours in a 24 hour day and upon working 80+ hours within a 14 day rolling period. so, if you worked 10 hours on day #1 of the 14 days, and from day 2 through 14 ended up working another seven days at 8 hours each, you would be paid 64 regular hours and 2 hours overtime for the 14 day period.

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&cp=15&gs_id=1n&xhr=t&q=being+paid+8/80&tok=zgvispeijgz1s9egzfv7uw&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=being+paid+8/80&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=cba57035e452253d&biw=1228&bih=602

the 40 hour week (paid every week) would mean you will be paid for anything over 40 hours per week whether or not you are per-diem which is why most, if not all, facilities will not allow any per diem ot unless desperate with no other options.......or you sneak it past them a couple of times. under the flsa, "overtime" means "time actually worked beyond a prescribed threshold." the normal flsa "work period" is the "work week" -- 7 consecutive days -- and the normal flsa overtime threshold is 40 hours per work week. some jobs may be governed by a different flsa overtime threshold. time actually worked over 40 hours in a work week is "flsa overtime." note that some jobs may use the word "overtime" differently, as for example to describe "time worked outside of the employee's normal schedule" or "time worked over 8 hours in a day."

an employer may pay employees on any basis it wishes, provided only that actual pay does not fall below the minimum standards required by the flsa. it is, therefore, permissible for an employer to use the word "overtime" to mean something different from the definition of "overtime" in the flsa. which means that if you worked 40 hours in a week and have mandatory "class" it is considered outside you regular "job tasks" and therefore is considered "non-productive time" and not eligible for ot. there is also provisions for "bonus pay" ot hoilday pay with the dol/flsa click on the various links.

http://www.flsa.com/overtime.html

http://www.adp.com/workforce-management/docs/whitepaper/flsa_white_paper.pdf

there are exceptions but they must be agreed upon with very specific instructions in accordance with the federal law. some states do have specific laws of exclusion so if you have questions you need to contact your states dol and attorney general.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/human-resources-2866/2010/9/8-80-overtime-clarification.htm

i have another link below with the proper code of federal regulations on "special overtime provisions available for hospital and residential care establishments under section 7(j)."

here is the link: look for 778.601 at the bottom

[color=#3366cc]http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=48d6ee3b99d3b3a97b1bf18

some background: the deal works like this... a typical employee is paid overtime after 40 hours in a workweek. if the employer makes an agreement to pay overtime after 8 hours in one work day, that is their call, but if they start this, then this is how they do it going forward. at a minimum ot must always be paid after 40 hours in 1 week (unless exempted by industry like a cab driver or movie theatre employee).

now, a hospital or nursing home may be exempt from the previous 40 hours in a work week rule for overtime. if they want this 8/80 exemption for overtime and want to follow this alternative ot rule, then before work is performed, the employer must communicate this is how things will work and agree to pay a two fold overtme process for employees. with the cfr 778.601 section j exemption to the 40 hour workweek rule, the employer (your employer) must pay overtime under two conditions:

1- any time you work over 8 hours in 1 day, and

2- any time within a 14 workday cycle when your total hours worked is more than 80 hours.

so, it is possible to get overtime on day # 1 of # 14 because you worked 13 hours.

as far as giving you notice and having an agreement, this is also covered in the link i provided above. here is an excerpt...

the agreement or understanding between the employer and employee to use the 14-day period for computing overtime must be entered into before the work to which it is intended to apply is performed. it may be arrived at directly with the employee or through his representative. it need not be in writing, but if it is not, a special record concerning it must be kept as required by part 516 of this chapter.

if the employer is now asking you to sign a paper, this can be a bad sign for them because to me it appears they did not have this agreement with you already as you suggested. however, if they did verbally tell you about this when you were hired, and you worked all this time and *forgot*, then that would be unfortunate. it is hard

for me to tell you why the employer would just decide to have this agreement signed off now, seemingly after the fact. if you refuse to sign the paper, they could terminate you as i'm sure it is a condition of employment. i need to bring these things to your attention as i think about this:

1- from what you are saying there may be a problem with your overtime pay- possible, but maybe not...

2- i don't know the actual hours you worked each work week, so the ot issue could be a one time mistake or an ongoing fiasco that has cost you a lot of cash,

3- i don't know what was said to you or if this 8/80 rule is spelled out in a policy manual, on a bulletin board, or elsewhere else at the workplace.

4- maybe the company is just "dotting the i's and crossing the t's" and want all employees to sign the 8/80 agreement- it doesn't have to be paper- it could be a verbal agreement too.

5- do other employees think they are in the dark over the 8/80 rule too; or are you thinking you are the only one?

you do have a right to file a wage claim with the dept. of labor to ask for an investigation into your failure to get overtime pay but i like to give companies a chance to fix a mistake and keep government out of it if at all possible. sometimes, honest mistakes do happen and they can be fixed the right way like professionals.

if the employer will do a good audit and it's found they need to pay you a few bucks to "make you whole" on any monies due, then just settle up and move on with work. if they blow you off and seem like other people are also getting the poop end of the stick, then maybe the department of labor is the only answer. if this happens, you can also get a lawyer to go after them civil for other damages.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=48d6ee3b99d3b3a97b1bf189e1757786&rgn=div5&view=text&node=29:3.1.1.2.38&idno=29#29:3.1.1.2.38.7.187.2

Ashley_RN · Dec 8, 2011

OT for over 12hrs/shift! I went to the wrong state! Massachusetts doesn't pay over 12, unless that 12 is over 40/week total.

I work in MA and anything over 12hrs is DOUBLE TIME :D

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Dec 8, 2011

I work in MA and anything over 12hrs is DOUBLE TIME :D

You must work at MNA facility.

Ashley_RN · Dec 9, 2011

You must work at MNA facility.

Yup & love it! :)

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Dec 9, 2011

Yup & love it! :)

good for you!!!