No Nursing Shortage At The Present Time - page 16

I am assured that some of you are reading this and saying to yourselves, "Duh! This topic is old hat. We already know there's a glut of nurses in many parts of the country, so why are you writing... Read More

  1. Visit  TheCommuter profile page
    4
    Quote from HM-8404
    The nursing industry needs to tighten up on its own.
    I totally agree. The nursing profession is shooting itself in the foot because it is so easy to become a nurse in this day and age. The options are endless.

    In addition, other professions tightly control the number of people that they allow in, which artificially maintains the pay rates and status of its members. Nursing is not doing a good job at this gatekeeping process. Since everyone and their mama has become a nurse within the past few years, wages have stagnated and working conditions have eroded. After all, management is now cognizant that a nurse is a dime a dozen and easily replaceable.
    Aurora77, Szasz_is_Right, melmarie23, and 1 other like this.
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  3. Visit  DoGoodThenGo profile page
    2
    Quote from TheCommuter
    I totally agree. The nursing profession is shooting itself in the foot because it is so easy to become a nurse in this day and age. The options are endless.

    In addition, other professions tightly control the number of people that they allow in, which artificially maintains the pay rates and status of its members. Nursing is not doing a good job at this gatekeeping process. Since everyone and their mama has become a nurse within the past few years, wages have stagnated and working conditions have eroded. After all, management is now cognizant that a nurse is a dime a dozen and easily replaceable.
    Oh I don't know about all that.

    Maybe back in the 1980's when you could go to a local CUNY (City University of New York) community college and get in with a 2.5 GPA, graduate at or with the same average, then take the boards it *might* be considered "easy" to become a nurse (it wasn't then, but we're not on that right now), but today is a far different story.

    At least in the NYC area one needs to be at or >3.0 in the pre-nursing sequence to even have a shot at getting into any program. You'll also need good to excellent SAT, or NLN scores as well since many programs now use a formula that bases entry upon a mixture of GPA and tests results. Once in you're going to have to work hard to remain with little margin for error. It only takes failing by a point or percentage thereof to get bounced out of a program.

    Yes, it does seem like everyone and their mother wants to become a nurse these days, however to their credit many programs one has seen around here have tightened up entry and retention requirements. Hunter-Bellevue now tells you straight up front on their website that there are only 100 slots for entry and competition is keen.

    As for wages, well am not going to stir that pool but will say that the average starting salary for a new grad ADN nurse (if she or her can find a gig) runs about $73K plus bennies. That is not too shabby a salary for an associate degree graduate.

    Here in NYC wages may be down and there may be an over supply due to several factors.

    First you have had about ten or more hospitals close since 2007 or so. This includes the entire NYC Saint Vinny's/Catholic Hospital system beginning with Saint Vinny's Mid-Town (the former Saint Clare's), then Cabrini, continuing to the facilities located in Queens then finally The Village campus as well. In additon to hospitals nursing homes both Catholic and not have been shutting down as well. To put it bluntly we've lost and are loosing many facilities which is putting experienced nurses out of work.


    Places could absorb these out of work nurses and many new grads if staffing were to increase. However facilities have their own reasons for not increasing in that area (low census, poor reimbursement rates, etc...) so you're often spreading fewer nurses around.


    As for wages and stagnation, well welcome to the world most of us work in today. Hardly anyone is getting any sort of meaningful raise other than what amounts to a CofL increase. Step out of line and you are told you can be replaced before your desk is cold.
    Fiona59 and koi310 like this.
  4. Visit  TheCommuter profile page
    1
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    Oh I don't know about all that.

    Maybe back in the 1980's when you could go to a local CUNY (City University of New York) community college and get in with a 2.5 GPA, graduate at or with the same average, then take the boards it *might* be considered "easy" to become a nurse (it wasn't then, but we're not on that right now), but today is a far different story.
    I do not know about the Northeast, but many states in the South, Midwest, and West are home to nursing programs offered at grossly expensive for-profit trade schools where one can get admitted with no prerequisites. All they must do is pass an easy entrance exam such as the TABE or the NET.

    So, yes, many people in today's society have not had to struggle to become nurses.
    Esme12 likes this.
  5. Visit  HM-8404 profile page
    0
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    Oh I don't know about all that.

    Maybe back in the 1980's when you could go to a local CUNY (City University of New York) community college and get in with a 2.5 GPA, graduate at or with the same average, then take the boards it *might* be considered "easy" to become a nurse (it wasn't then, but we're not on that right now), but today is a far different story.

    At least in the NYC area one needs to be at or >3.0 in the pre-nursing sequence to even have a shot at getting into any program. You'll also need good to excellent SAT, or NLN scores as well since many programs now use a formula that bases entry upon a mixture of GPA and tests results. Once in you're going to have to work hard to remain with little margin for error. It only takes failing by a point or percentage thereof to get bounced out of a program.

    As for wages, well am not going to stir that pool but will say that the average starting salary for a new grad ADN nurse (if she or her can find a gig) runs about $73K plus bennies. That is not too shabby a salary for an associate degree graduate.
    After reading today about a 300 sq ft. apt. renting for $2000 a month in NYC I don't see 73K a year as such great pay.

    What you say about the admission requirements for NYC programs are the same for my area,the Southeast. I was turned down from one program with a 3.2 gpa and 8 years of experience. Al programs here require a 2.75 to apply, but you won't get in with that gpa. I also scored well on my admission test. If you score under 74.5 on a test you have to remediate that test. If your final grade in a class is below 74.5 you are immediately dropped from the nursing program.
  6. Visit  DoGoodThenGo profile page
    0
    Quote from HM-8404
    After reading today about a 300 sq ft. apt. renting for $2000 a month in NYC I don't see 73K a year as such great pay.

    What you say about the admission requirements for NYC programs are the same for my area,the Southeast. I was turned down from one program with a 3.2 gpa and 8 years of experience. Al programs here require a 2.75 to apply, but you won't get in with that gpa. I also scored well on my admission test. If you score under 74.5 on a test you have to remediate that test. If your final grade in a class is below 74.5 you are immediately dropped from the nursing program.
    Yes, rent/housing costs here are high, and hospitals/facilites bemoan the fact they must take this into account when recuriting not just nurses but physicans and other staff as well. NYP just built some new housing but not every nurse wants to live in a "nurse's residence".

    Sure, $70K plus isn't "great" but it sure beats some of the other starting salaries for college graduates around here. Even those with four year degrees often start out less.
  7. Visit  DoGoodThenGo profile page
    0
    Quote from TheCommuter
    I do not know about the Northeast, but many states in the South, Midwest, and West are home to nursing programs offered at grossly expensive for-profit trade schools where one can get admitted with no prerequisites. All they must do is pass an easy entrance exam such as the TABE or the NET.

    So, yes, many people in today's society have not had to struggle to become nurses.
    Am not saying every NY area program is perfect. The Swedish Massage Insitute recently started a nursing program and the former Saint Vinny's programs are now St. Paul's and run by a for profit trade school group.

    What often does happen in NYC though is better facilities are very picky whom they hire. The interview/recruitment process is pretty decent in weeding out those a place deems won't work out.
  8. Visit  TheCommuter profile page
    1
    Quote from HM-8404
    I feel anyone can learn math and science if they want.
    I am a black female who has been struggling with math since my earliest elementary school years. Although I have been attempting to 'buckle down' and learn it, basic concepts seem to baffle me. Despite doing well in a college-prep track at a public high school, I have always had to take remedial math courses at community colleges. This is after having taken four years of college-prep math in high school.

    And since these remedial (developmental) courses are taught with the approach that "you learned this in the distant past, but have forgotten it," I become even more confused. I did not learn many of the topics that are being presented in the remedial courses, so I do not even have a basic framework.

    Math is a very rational and sequential subject, which means that one cannot learn higher level topics without having first mastered the basics. I have struggled for many years to grasp the basics, and until I learn the more basic math, the higher level stuff (read: algebra) continues to mystify me.

    College-level math is also a gatekeeper of sorts, so I will not be able to earn a BSN or higher until I can successfully conquer this feat.
    Ambitiouz likes this.
  9. Visit  morte profile page
    2
    This just reinforces the fact that "we" the nursing community is not acting as a "gate keeper" in keeping the graduating number DOWN. If these grads aren't good enough to hire, they shouldn't have been admitted. Supply.and.Demand.
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    Am not saying every NY area program is perfect. The Swedish Massage Insitute recently started a nursing program and the former Saint Vinny's programs are now St. Paul's and run by a for profit trade school group.

    What often does happen in NYC though is better facilities are very picky whom they hire. The interview/recruitment process is pretty decent in weeding out those a place deems won't work out.
    Szasz_is_Right and Fiona59 like this.
  10. Visit  OCNRN63 profile page
    0
    Quote from nursel56
    You should make batches of it in your office if it ever comes to that -- the smell of caramel popcorn is so irresistible the old bats who finally got out of the way will all come back! --- no not that!!!!

    ?????

    !!!!!

    .....
  11. Visit  OCNRN63 profile page
    0
    Quote from tothepointeLVN
    That's cool I'll just order some walkers and tennis balls
    ?????

    !!!!!

    .....
  12. Visit  ctmed profile page
    1
    Quote from morte
    This just reinforces the fact that "we" the nursing community is not acting as a "gate keeper" in keeping the graduating number DOWN. If these grads aren't good enough to hire, they shouldn't have been admitted. Supply.and.Demand.
    The system will equalize itself like it has done with IT.

    You may soon (5-10 years) need LPN to work the floor as a CNA for any facility that is not a rural nursing home.

    RN - AAS and BSN will strictly be direct patient care/bedside positions with no nice desk/"fault-finder" paper jobs unless you are grandfathered in. At least the RN will be able to sit down. Someone I know had one of those gigs at a local area hospital. At age 55, she was told to either go back to the med surg floor for floor nursing or take retirement after 20 years of service! Someone with a MS was taking that job.

    NP will be required for anything in nursing that has autonomy. Or, for that matter, anything not direct patient care and call lights.

    This is ALREADY happening in other medical fields. Look at what they did to keep this from happening to our friends in the therapy department. OT/PT/ST is now a Masters! PTA/ COTA is a two year degree for what folks would have used a CNA with a bit of on-the-job training for years back!

    Do you want to limit entry to our field that way? By sheer means of massive student debt and classes which you probably do not need to do the job? Sounds to me of conspiracy and I am not even a conspiracy buff. This means academia racks up AND the employer gets more folks to choose from who MUST have their job because they were in school forever.
    CNA1991 likes this.
  13. Visit  morte profile page
    0
    Why should all those persons graduate, and not have jobs, when something could be done about it? yes, frequently, therapy (OT/PT) is held up as an example of how to do it. And I would bet you 50$ that the nurse who was replace with an MSN, was being paid more and/or was potentially/actually costing her employer more, than the new hire. Or perhaps the MSN "knew" somebody. Following your train of thought, you would need and NP for nurse manager, infection control, and all auditing jobs. The last in particular makes no sense, when some NPs have no working knowledge of bedside nursing!
    Quote from ctmed
    The system will equalize itself like it has done with IT.

    You may soon (5-10 years) need LPN to work the floor as a CNA for any facility that is not a rural nursing home.

    RN - AAS and BSN will strictly be direct patient care/bedside positions with no nice desk/"fault-finder" paper jobs unless you are grandfathered in. At least the RN will be able to sit down. Someone I know had one of those gigs at a local area hospital. At age 55, she was told to either go back to the med surg floor for floor nursing or take retirement after 20 years of service! Someone with a MS was taking that job.

    NP will be required for anything in nursing that has autonomy. Or, for that matter, anything not direct patient care and call lights.

    This is ALREADY happening in other medical fields. Look at what they did to keep this from happening to our friends in the therapy department. OT/PT/ST is now a Masters! PTA/ COTA is a two year degree for what folks would have used a CNA with a bit of on-the-job training for years back!

    Do you want to limit entry to our field that way? By sheer means of massive student debt and classes which you probably do not need to do the job? Sounds to me of conspiracy and I am not even a conspiracy buff. This means academia racks up AND the employer gets more folks to choose from who MUST have their job because they were in school forever.
  14. Visit  CrunchRN profile page
    3
    Hmmmm - I am having trouble seeing all these MSN's working the floors and shifts etc even if they are mostly at the desk directing the ADN's giving the physical care. Did they really go into that much debt and work that hard to be in that spot?


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