No Nursing Shortage At The Present Time - page 15

I am assured that some of you are reading this and saying to yourselves, "Duh! This topic is old hat. We already know there's a glut of nurses in many parts of the country, so why are you writing... Read More

  1. Visit  DoGoodThenGo profile page
    0
    Quote from HM-8404
    One poster made the statement that requiring a BSN keeps minorities out of nursing because they cannot learn math and science. I disagree with that. I think it has more to do with cost and the availability of BSN programs in their area. I feel anyone can learn math and science if they want. I had not sat in a classroom in almost 28 years, never took a biology, algebra, or chemistry class in my life and I managed to make A's and B's in all of those. Is it because my white brain retained so much from so long ago that I was never exposed to, or perhaps it was because I learned it in college? Groups of people will generally do what is expected of them. If girls enter high school with the everyone telling them they are not expected to do well in math and science most of them will not, same with boys and English class.

    Actually, if I were a minority I would be offended by the assumption I would do poorly in math and science simply because I was not white or Asian.
    Furthermore: STEM Education And Jobs: Declining Numbers Of Blacks Seen In Math, Science
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  3. Visit  HM-8404 profile page
    1
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    Did not say they "could not" but that historically African American and Latino students have not done well in those subjects.

    Rising bachelor degree requirements in nursing is crowding out disadvantaged minorities
    . A total of 51 percent of White nurses under 40 years old have bachelor’s degrees, compared to only 46 percent of Hispanics and 44 percent of African American nurses.
    You do realize this is only a 5% and 7% difference.

    Maybe they will historically do better now that more are choosing to attend college.
    DizzyLizzyNurse likes this.
  4. Visit  Stephalump profile page
    1
    Quote from HM-8404
    One poster made the statement that requiring a BSN keeps minorities out of nursing because they cannot learn math and science. I disagree with that. I think it has more to do with cost and the availability of BSN programs in their area. I feel anyone can learn math and science if they want. I had not sat in a classroom in almost 28 years, never took a biology, algebra, or chemistry class in my life and I managed to make A's and B's in all of those. Is it because my white brain retained so much from so long ago that I was never exposed to, or perhaps it was because I learned it in college? Groups of people will generally do what is expected of them. If girls enter high school with the everyone telling them they are not expected to do well in math and science most of them will not, same with boys and English class.

    Actually, if I were a minority I would be offended by the assumption I would do poorly in math and science simply because I was not white or Asian.
    I don't think the point was that they "cannot" learn math and science. It's just that, statistically speaking, Hispanics and African-Americans do more poorly. Why they do poorly is up to conjecture.

    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    They base this on the increasing educational requirements expected of RNs (in short the BSN) which place an emphasis on math and sciences. Two subjects historically which Latino and African American students do poorly on average.
    Agree that cost and location would be big factors at play, and I think the accessibility issue kind of goes hand in hand with the math/science issue. Like you said, people tend to do what is expected of them. Many people are breaking down barriers and busting out of molds just by going to the community college a few miles away. "Going away" to college in another city/state is a whole other ball game.

    I'm (half) black, and yes, I would probably become a biochemist to prove a point if people invested time into telling me I'm naturally going to suck at science. Rebellion gets ya places
    HM-8404 likes this.
  5. Visit  DoGoodThenGo profile page
    2
    Quote from HM-8404
    You do realize this is only a 5% and 7% difference.

    Maybe they will historically do better now that more are choosing to attend college.
    True, will give you that, however the question remains how to get *there* from here.

    If current trends continue nursing programs are only going to become more not less difficult, especially if facilities keep moving towards BSN only hiring models.

    The Georgetown report cited above contained lots of rather interesting tidbits.

    For instance not only are physicans as a group the top wage earners in US healthcare, the profession is largely white and made up of those from affluent families. If this is true it would mean the medical profession has not moved that far in terms of diversity as many assume.

    While the current pool of physicans seems to be more diverse in terms of gender,religon and sexual preference, most still come from the same racial backgound is telling.

    Now are we to assume minorites aren't interested in becoming physicans? Where and how does socio-economic differences play a role? No one can deny college and med school are expensive but surely that does not account for the all the differences.

    However one thing is true in that overall if one does not have the proper foundation in primary and secondary school pre-med much less medical school is usually out of the question academically.
    silenced and MBARNBSN like this.
  6. Visit  HM-8404 profile page
    1
    Interesting article. It appears many minorities convince themselves they will not succeed in STEM careers, not that they don't have the basic knowledge to learn the math and science needed to get into a program. It also seems as if it does not really matter that corporations are pouring tens of millions of dollars into programs trying to recruit them into those programs.

    How do you correct this? How do you overcome the notion that careers in science are not lame and geeky when they are competing with the hip hop culture that glorifies the thug gang banger lifestyle as being desirable? Many times minorities will resist this due to not wanting to be seen as "acting white."
    DizzyLizzyNurse likes this.
  7. Visit  DoGoodThenGo profile page
    2
    Quote from Stephalump
    I don't think the point was that they "cannot" learn math and science. It's just that, statistically speaking, Hispanics and African-Americans do more poorly. Why they do poorly is up to conjecture.



    Agree that cost and location would be big factors at play, and I think the accessibility issue kind of goes hand in hand with the math/science issue. Like you said, people tend to do what is expected of them. Many people are breaking down barriers and busting out of molds just by going to the community college a few miles away. "Going away" to college in another city/state is a whole other ball game.

    I'm (half) black, and yes, I would probably become a biochemist to prove a point if people invested time into telling me I'm naturally going to suck at science. Rebellion gets ya places
    There is a huge debate going on in education circles especially in urban areas and or those that serve mostly AA populations as to what extent the peer bias of "acting white" harms certain AA students.

    For those who no not know the term "acting white" is applied to minority students (mainly African American) who excel at school by their peers. This pressure in it's extreme can cause even academically gifted students to "dumb down" in order to fit in. Indeed some have no other choice as they face threats of and or actual verbal and physical violence.

    This becomes a particular problem for teenage high school students who often want to fit in with this or that group. To be called or assumed "gay" or otherwise made to feel different and excluded from the main groups can not only harm these teens emotionally, but in urban areas where gangs pretty much control things can be deadly.
    MBARNBSN and HM-8404 like this.
  8. Visit  HM-8404 profile page
    2
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    If current trends continue nursing programs are only going to become more not less difficult, especially if facilities keep moving towards BSN only hiring models.
    With nursing and the medical field becoming more advanced each year is it a bad thing for nursing school to become more difficult to get into and pass? I would never advocate making a health care profession easier. Just like I would never agree with a passing score for a white student to be 75 where the passing score for a minority student to be 70, since they are underserved. What about making the passing score for male nursing students 50 since they only make up 10% of all nurses? I feel this would create substandard nurses that are just a death or lawsuit waiting to happen.
  9. Visit  DoGoodThenGo profile page
    1
    Quote from HM-8404
    Interesting article. It appears many minorities convince themselves they will not succeed in STEM careers, not that they don't have the basic knowledge to learn the math and science needed to get into a program. It also seems as if it does not really matter that corporations are pouring tens of millions of dollars into programs trying to recruit them into those programs.

    How do you correct this? How do you overcome the notion that careers in science are not lame and geeky when they are competing with the hip hop culture that glorifies the thug gang banger lifestyle as being desirable? Many times minorities will resist this due to not wanting to be seen as "acting white."
    There my girl (or guy) you have hit the nail on the head, and sadly there aren't any good answers.

    In the decade or so after the Civil Rights movement AA's made huge gains in the professions and other careers. However it seems since about the 1980's or 1990's things have been back sliding.

    When I was growing up you had plenty of AA nurses, teachers, and other professionals that acted as role models for not only their own children but others in the community as well. It seems that is going and the new idols are rap artists (and I use that term loosely), drug dealers, pimps, girls who "use what they got to get what they need', sports players and so forth. It also has not helped that by and large AA middle and above classes have moved away from urban areas to either upscale white or communities of their own.

    Personally think African Americans are running a huge risk of not only loosing what gains they have, but becoming out flanked by the large and growing Hispanic community.

    The really interesting thing is that even amoung "Black Americans" there is a huge difference in the way education is valued. Some of the hardest working and educational driven African Americans one knows come from either Africa or the Caribbean islands. Even if the parents have only say a high school education they push their children to get the most out of any and every educational option this country has to offer.
    Not_A_Hat_Person likes this.
  10. Visit  DoGoodThenGo profile page
    0
    Quote from HM-8404
    With nursing and the medical field becoming more advanced each year is it a bad thing for nursing school to become more difficult to get into and pass? I would never advocate making a health care profession easier. Just like I would never agree with a passing score for a white student to be 75 where the passing score for a minority student to be 70, since they are underserved. What about making the passing score for male nursing students 50 since they only make up 10% of all nurses? I feel this would create substandard nurses that are just a death or lawsuit waiting to happen.
    Neither would I, but unless something is done to break the academic gap between non-white and minority students things cannot and will not get better on their own.

    Remember also it's not just undergraduate BSN students these students are in competition with, but increasing numbers of those with BofS degrees in other areas including the sciences going to ABSN programs. How long that will continue is anyone's guess but with colleges, universities, pharma companies cutting back hiring leaving those with biology,chem and other degrees looking for steady work....
  11. Visit  ctmed profile page
    1
    I my area (Lousiana) they are letting CNAs go and putting LPNs on the floor to do CNA work in hospitals. The LPNs are not too happy about it, but they either do it or face unemployment. The pay is kind of low, too. I think these LPNs are only pulling 15-16/hr with no experience as new grads.

    Hire-on bonuses, tuition reimbursement, etc are things of the past and fewer and fewer folks use agency anymore.

    With this surplus, I see degree inflation eventually happening. In the future, you will need LPN to clean bedpans. You will need NP to be able to sit behind a desk. And... a two year degree in hotel/restaurant management to wash dishes
    CNA1991 likes this.
  12. Visit  HM-8404 profile page
    3
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    Neither would I, but unless something is done to break the academic gap between non-white and minority students things cannot and will not get better on their own.
    Historically the way they correct gaps in the US has been to lower standards, not pull the other groups up. Look at college athletics as an example. The public schools lowered their admission standards to recruit athletes that would not normally qualify for admission. Did this actually help with the educational standards in America? How many remedial classes do these students have to take to even get into college level classes?

    Even the military does it. They reduced physical standards when they started allowing women to serve. Eventually women will be allowed into Combat Arms jobs with lower physical standards.
    Szasz_is_Right, anotherone, and Fiona59 like this.
  13. Visit  ctmed profile page
    6
    Quote from HM-8404
    Historically the way they correct gaps in the US has been to lower standards, not pull the other groups up. Look at college athletics as an example. The public schools lowered their admission standards to recruit athletes that would not normally qualify for admission. Did this actually help with the educational standards in America? How many remedial classes do these students have to take to even get into college level classes?

    Even the military does it. They reduced physical standards when they started allowing women to serve. Eventually women will be allowed into Combat Arms jobs with lower physical standards.
    The bottom line in all this is labor cost. I remember back in the day, if you were a nurse you made bank and were guaranteed a job. Heck, back in 00 there were even agencies where you could go to Hawaii as a CNA!

    Supply and demand. If you increase the supply, as an employer you get to choose more of the best candidates for cheap. It is an awesome situation for employers. No facility owner wants to deal with someone who can lose their job then get a better paying job with bonuses the next day. It is hard to motivate and control them in that situation. This has already happened in IT/computers. When my dad got into that, if you had a two year degree you were making bank. Now, with IT flooded, on DICE (IT industry board like allnurses) the employers are literally asking for and getting Masters Degrees with 5 certs just for phone jobs you could have gotten with a HS diploma a decade back. Of course, just like nursing, web content article writers still harp on "IT shortage".

    I am predicting the same for nursing. I still maintain we will be looking at degree inflation and wages which will stagnate or go down.
    CNA1991, Fiona59, koi310, and 3 others like this.
  14. Visit  HM-8404 profile page
    2
    Quote from ctmed
    The bottom line in all this is labor cost. I remember back in the day, if you were a nurse you made bank and were guaranteed a job. Heck, back in 00 there were even agencies where you could go to Hawaii as a CNA!

    Supply and demand. If you increase the supply, as an employer you get to choose more of the best candidates for cheap. It is an awesome situation for employers. No facility owner wants to deal with someone who can lose their job then get a better paying job with bonuses the next day. It is hard to motivate and control them in that situation. This has already happened in IT/computers. When my dad got into that, if you had a two year degree you were making bank. Now, with IT flooded, on DICE (IT industry board like allnurses) the employers are literally asking for and getting Masters Degrees with 5 certs just for phone jobs you could have gotten with a HS diploma a decade back. Of course, just like nursing, web content article writers still harp on "IT shortage".

    I am predicting the same for nursing. I still maintain we will be looking at degree inflation and wages which will stagnate or go down.
    BINGO!! I could not agree more. The nursing industry needs to tighten up on its own. I constantly read nurse's posting about how underpaid they are, but they are the very same nurses that squawk when a suggestion is made to require all nurses (RN) to eventually have a BSN. Rather than talk about unions talk about making the standards higher so the hospitals must compete for your employment. When I first entered the Navy, hospitals around here were paying sign-on bonuses, retention bonuses, and/or paying off student loans or paying tuition. If nurses want more respect from patients then require more education than the patient's dimwit cousin that has an Associates in Graphic Design, or Cosmetology. If you want more respect from management don't be so easy to replace. Of course the hospitals are going to back the Dr's most of the time, it is much harder to replace a doctor. If a nurse gets PO'd and walks out the door they have 100 nurse's applications in HR from people willing to take your place.

    My ex sister-in-law got into IT when there was a hiring boom, today she works in another field because she cannot live off what they currently pay.
    CNA1991 and melmarie23 like this.


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