LPNs in ICU

Nurses General Nursing

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Our hospital recently brought LPNs into ICU, and we are having some trouble adjusting to the change. They were brought in to our units because we have lost so many RNs recently, and have not been able to replace them. Please don't think I am putting LPNS down, I am not. I was an LPN for four years before I was an RN, and I have a great deal of respect for them. The two that have come in to the unit are sweet wonderful girls with a lot of knowledge and they work very hard. The real problem is the limitations placed on them In our state LPNs are not allowed to give IV pushes, hang blood, or hang and titrate drips. They cannot measure hemodynamics, and cannot take verbal orders from a physician. So an RN must do all of these tasks for them, as well as take on a full patient load of her own. The LPNs get very frustrated too when they need something done for their patient and the RN who is supposed to be covering her can't get away from her own patient to handle a problem. We have tried to have an LPN and an RN share four patients, with the LPN doing meds and treatments, and the RN doing assessments, drips and the like, but this has not worked out either. To make matters worse, some of the RNs are hostile to the LPNs, and give them a hard time. Most of us have been supportive of them, but a small number of the RNs have made things difficult in numerous ways. Most of it is very subtle, and is difficult to take anything specific to our unit manager. A few of the docs have also expressed discomfort with the LPNs being in a critical care area. Again, I am not complaining about the LPNs, I am just looking for some feedback and advise on ways to organize care and make this situation a little easier on everyone.

rn inicu,

i've been a lpn and now bsn (12 years). i currently work in the er where there are lpn's who are acls and pals certified. they can start an iv, hang ns & lr ivf's, transfuse blood and im, sq & po meds. they can't do initial assessments, triage, iv antibiotics or pushes. there are also other things they cannot do, but what they can do, they do very well.

i would not have been comfortable working as a lpn in the ccu, but i think lpn's can work in the ccu. as a rn, i would be more comfortable with an experienced er lpn or an experienced med-surg rn with credentials (acls). i'd start by figuring out and documenting what your lpn's can do per your state laws, versus what your med-surg rn's can do per your hospital protocols, versus what your ccrn's can do per your hospital protocols. (this will make sense in a minute). you'll have to determine how staff is budgeted in your unit. is it by $$, acuity or patient specific scores that determine acuity? why? because one of the reasons lpn's are considered in the ccu is their lower salary. they can fill the shortage need at a cheaper rate. your manager is lpn "friendly" so show her that by creating an alliance with the er, she can float er lpn's to your unit based on your current patient census and acuity's. if your hospital "calls off" med-surg rn staff for low census, find out who's experienced with credentials and float those nurses to other needed departments (i.e. your ccu). your lead or charge would determine day-to-day acuity's based on your manager's direction (she'll need to make guidelines) and determine if staffing an er lpn to pick up patients that need less rn specific care is appropriate. or, if a rn is more suited for your census acutity. since your manager is lpn "friendly" no use in never saying a lpn is appropriate. her guidelines should clearly validate when to staff a lpn or rn from the float or call off pool. and i know, "float" staff can sometimes be burdensome too. but once specific staff is floated to your department, but after time they become familiar and its not so bad.

this solution has holes to fill in too, but it's a blueprint start. you and your management's decision for lpn's can gain from it. let me know if you need clarity on something i might not have elaborated on -and- if it's considered and works for you!

s_bsn

Specializes in Everything except surgery.

I'm totally lost here...and I don't understand your reasoning at all!!! I mean...did you read the post from RNinICU...where she wrote that the LPNs in her unit have taken critical care courses...which include ACLS??? And that the problem wasn't that the LPNs couldn't do the skills needed...but were restricted from doing so???:confused: And why would an experienced ER LPN be more effective in an ICU or CCU for that matter???:confused: In your ER...the only thing the LPNs can do...that the ones in RNinICU's unit can't is give blood!! No where did RNinICU..express that she or the other RNs in her unit...weren't comfortable with LPNs that are in their unit!

Also what makes you think that an experienced med-surg RN would make a good float to a CCU...just because they are ACLS?? Sure they can give IVPs, hang blood, and titrate drips. But who is going to assist them in managing those drips, the pts with hemodynamic monitoring, manage the vents, assist with line placements. Titrating drips require more knowledge than can be gained by completing an ACLS course! Will that med-surg RN with ACLS know what that 12 lead EKG is saying, what that waveform is telling them, what LVEDP is...when waveform calculations are done, what drug needs to be ready when inserting a SWAN...understand the correlation of PAD and PCWP, what IRV is, and when it can be applied...or why...or what a VQ mismatch means???

Please...enlighten me...as I'm sitting here totally:confused:!!!

And please help me understand why an LPN can give blood, and not ABXs???:confused:

Specializes in Everything except surgery.
Originally posted by mattsmom81

Well balanced post Brownie....well said! :)

One thing we did in our ICU was to create specific UNIT BASED policies....so that our competent LPN's could practice to the limits of their skills ...unencumbered. We all LOVED it!

Funny thing...when our LPN's floated out to the general floors...THEN they were restricted by THAT unit's policy and hospital general policy, which did not allow them to spike blood, or do the admission asessment, and a few other silly things...

Perhaps this is something to explore with your unit manager, RN inICU....a unit specific policy allowing the competent ICU trained LPN to assume more duties than other areas of the hospital...a 'special' policy just for ICU...worked well for us. :)

Thanks mattsmom..:). And I must say..I totally agree with your solution. I think if their going to have LPNs in the ICU...that the those who made that decision should have realized...they were going to have to relax some of the restrictions. Because of the nurse practice act...they may not be able to do that on some of the restrictions...but anything would be better than what they had now!

We had to stay within out State Practice Act with our unit based policy, this is true. If RNinICU's STATE restrictions are behind this, a unit policy may not help.

Texas, luckily, has few restrictions on the competent LPN. :)

RNinICU may have a very limiting LPN Nurse Practice Act. Some states (and facilities) treat LPN's more like aides than nurses..which is ridiculous, IMO.

When I said sometimes I was happy to get a brave Med Surg nurse to help me in a pinch, it was just that...a pinch! Sometimes we take any help we can get in a bad situation.....but I sure would not want to work like that on a REGULAR BASIS.

If it's a question of a medsurg helper or 'nobody', sometimes we punt...on occasion....sorry for any misunderstanding there.

I took Brownies advise and checked my state's nurse Practice Act. I found out that some of the restrictions, in particular the one about taking verbal orders, was a hospital restriction, not a state one. I printed a copy to take in and show my manager, and she told me she was aware of this. She then offered the hospital's interpretation of this law, which in general states that an LPN can take a verbal order in an emergency, as long as she understands the order. She said that since there is always an RN present to take orders from MDs, even in the most emergent situation, that this law does not apply. If an RN is present, then the situation is not emergent enough for an LPN to take the order. Sounds like the kind of corporate doublespeak we've been hearing since our community hospital became part of a large healthcare system a few years ago. So, looks like this systemis going to continue until we refuse to do it, or something adverse happens to a patient. I did call the supervisor last night and told her I was calling off sick if I did not at least have one other strong RN there also. Amazingly, the guy who had been called off for a low census day was called back in.

Specializes in Everything except surgery.

mattsmom...I understood where you were coming from...:). What I'm :confused: about is where S_BSN is coming from. Yes...I do beleive a hand is better than no hand. But floating untrained nurses into the critical care setting is accident waiting to happen IMHO.

And RNinICU...good for you! At least you're trying to do something about the problems you face! And you know...I had a feeling that your hospital would use exactly the interpretation they did.:o They just want to push the responsiblity onto the RNs, and could care less how this affects them! But I have to give it to you....for not just taking their crap lying down! And way to go in getting the help you needed! You hang in there, and keep making them do the right thing! :cool:

Good job RNinICU!! Keep on talking, don't take this lying down!!!

I would also like to know the reason why an LPN can hang blood and not abx?

I also have a hard time understanding why they can't take an order? I mean I understand that it's a law there but I just don't see what the reasoning would be.

From what i understand the not takeing verbal orders is a medicaid issue. It has to with, care haveing to be cordinated by an RN there for the RN must be the link between the Doctor and other staff ie LPN's

I have floated to SNF and I can take TO or VO orders there, as an LPN. I also hear the LPNs can take orders in rehab and in nursing homes.

Its very annoying to have to beg an RN to call a doc for you and even more so to have to run after a doc to wright down that order she gave you for MOM or something as silly.

Specializes in Med-Surg Nursing.

I am a licensed RN in both Ohio and Pennsylvania. I know that in Ohio LPN's cannot give any IVP med's except to flush a saline lock. They can start IV's on Adults in Upper extremities only. They can initiate Iv therapy of regular fluids such as D5W, NSS and combinations of both. They can MAINTAIN an IV fluid with KCL as long as that infusion was initiated by an RN. LPN's in Ohio cannot by law hang blood, TPN or any other med(like Dopa, Dobuta, Heparin, Insulin drips). They are allowed to give certain IV antibiotics piggyback. LPNs in Ohio are allowed to take verbal and phone orders from Doctors but aren't allowed to note those orders(the last part is a facility restriction not a State one).

I think that the rules in PA are similar but I could be wrong so any PA LPN's out there please correct me.

So, because of the State of Ohio's restrictions on LPN's in regards to IV therapy, I personally wouldn't want to work with them in a Critical care setting. No flame throwing please.

We had a meeting with our director of medical services, and our emerg director about a new policy to hire two care aides instead of two LPN's in emerg. The emerg management read an exerpt from NENA (nation emergency nurses' affiliation) It is a long excerpt, but basically she read it to make her position known.(She is on the record for not liking LPN's-quoted as saying we would want to do too much.)Anyway the excerpt bascially stated that having LPN's in emergency departments increases the rate of patient mortality. We all left that meeting with their footprints on our butts. Now we are in correspondence with the provincial health minister, and our college of licensed practical nurses. I still feel sick to my stomach. Yes, we don have a different depth and breadth of knowledge, but it can be a viable partnership in the health care system. Why it works in some hospitals and not in others is a complete mystery to me.

Leeson, the attitude of your director could use an overhaul for sure...it angers me to hear stories like this. So unnecessary to belittle another. :(

Hang in there...maybe you can educate her about your value....if not, find a better place where you can get the appreciation you deserve!!

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