Is this the publics perception of nurses? - page 9

i am a charge RN in a cvicu. yesterday i took care of a man that was pod1 5 vessel cabg on a balloon pump and multiple drips. i had post op'd the pt the previous day so i had developed a repor with... Read More

  1. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Suzy, all you need to is access www.noadn.org to see the impact of simply doing away w/associate degree RN programs in the USA would be.......the VAST majority of incoming RN's graduates these programs; you can see how the FACTS back up what I am saying about making BSN programs universally-available if you wish to have enough RN's to care for us all into old age today and in the future.
  2. by   Q.
    Ok, so in answer to my philosophical question - "should a college education (nursing) be accessible (meaning, close to everyone's community, and a set pricetag) to all?" you're answering "yes." It should be, and better be, or else, forget it. Right?

    There are other shortages of professions out there as well. Computer science, to name one. To argue that "computer science" isn't as "important" as nursing is moot and not even relevant and could be argued. Does that mean that whenever there is an identified shortage of something - we open the floodgates and ensure that everyone who has a whim can attain it?

    Not everyone can commute or move that far to go to ANY school or ANY career they want - why should nursing be any different than any other career path? Or are you saying that this should only be in effect when there is a "shortage?"

    Deb, your stats of the average age of an RN seem a bit low. I've read the average age is 42, and I don't think that has anything to do with BSN or ADN. I think it has MORE to do with the fact that high schoolers are not choosing nursing, or, if they make it that far, leave the profession in droves.

    This can be a cyclical argument. There's arguments that state having one entry (BSN) would worsen the shortage for a bit, but we'd recover in the long run; others say it would worsen and NEVER recover, because people who want to be nurses don't necessarily want a Bachelors, or, that a Bachelor's isn't important to being a nurse. Let me ask, when IS a Bachelor's important or valuable? In what profession or career? And if it is in those specific careers, why them and not nursing?

    And finally, I'm a BSN proponent and there is nothing wrong with that. However, I'm MORE SO a proponent for ONE point of entry into professional practice - if that's an ADN so be it. But my main concern is standard educational requirements. None of this mish-mash garbage we got going on now.
    Last edit by Susy K on Dec 29, '02
  3. by   Pretzlgl
    Originally posted by Susy K


    Deb, your stats of the average age of an RN seem a bit low. I've read the average age is 42, and I don't think that has anything to do with BSN or ADN.

    This can be a cyclical argument. There's arguments that state having one entry (BSN) would worsen the shortage for a bit, but we'd recover in the long run; others say it would worsen and NEVER recover, because people who want to be nurses don't necessarily want a Bachelors, or, that a Bachelor's isn't important to being a nurse. Let me ask, when IS a Bachelor's important or valuable? In what profession or career? And if it is in those specific careers, why them and not nursing?

    But my main concern is standard educational requirements. None of this mish-mash garbage we got going on now.
    Suzy -

    SmilingBlueEyes meant the average age for a nursing STUDENT is 34, not the practicing nurse. And this does have something to do with BSN/ADN. At 34 most people have many other responsibilities that may preclude them from attending the traditional 4 year degree program. The fact that there are ADN and diploma nursing programs available was a blessing for me. I was able to enter a profession that I otherwise couldn't. (Time and financial constraints being my reasons).

    However, I do see your point. And I agree. (choke - LOL) The fact that there is a shortage should really not dictate the availability of programs. Most likely, more programs pop up and contribute to the poor reputation of nursing. (Lower standards, etc.) I still contend that nursing has many other issues as well - maybe standard educational requirements would be one step in the right direction, but many more steps would have to follow.
  4. by   MishlB
    Originally posted by MissdonditaBsn
    .

    It doesn't matter what degree we have earned, Diploma/ADN/BSN, we have all taken the same exam and we all worked hard for the HONOR of being called a nurse!!!
    HOORAY FOR THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!:hatparty:
  5. by   MishlB
    Originally posted by austin heart
    i don't know about that. i get asked almost everyday by at least on of my patients "are you an RN?"
    i also work in a hospital that only hires RN's. this is printed in pt education material so that all patients know that they are being cared for by an RN. but who reads that stuff?
    please, LVN's do not flame me. i, being and RN do not think that i am superior, just stating facts in my facility.
    I am in a facility in a small town(Minnesota)...I think there are two four year RN's. The rest are LPN's and ADRN's. They all work together very well, and there are no bitter feelings about degrees or titles. I know this is not the case everywhere, but it can happen. Isn't there a place for all nurses somewhere in healthcare?? The BSN definitely has a place, especially advancement towards teaching, or in certain positions, I understand this. It's funny, during our ADRN program, a nearby major university (in a state with BSN entry into practice still exists, but 'technically' an ADRN can practice with continuing education over 8-10 years.) came to "recruit" us for their 4 year program saying we will make SO much more money and earn SO much more respect with a 4 year degree. (At a mere $170.00 per credit, and they require 33 more credits BEYOND what we have as LPN, ADRN grads!!!) How sad is that. It's all about money to them, not what we learn.
    By the way, the grads from this area tend to leave, since pay is horrible anyway!!
  6. by   OzNurse69
    In 1993 (I think??) hospital programs here were abolished in favour of university degrees - now everyone who graduates as an RN has a Bachelor of Nursing. I for one get totally confused about the system you guys have over there - how would it be for someone who is not personally involved in the health care system (other than as a patient)?

    I agree with Susy (now don't all have heart failure!) - if there was a shortage of any other profession, e.g. physiotherapists, you would not hear "let's have another alternative mode of entry into the profession, so that we can increase our numbers". Clearly that has not worked, so why not accept that a single mode of entry into nursing would simplify the whole system?

    Now I'm not saying our way is perfect, we are suffering from the nursing shortage just as much as anyone else. HOWEVER we are no worse off than you guys. Here it is simply accepted that if you want to do nursing, you go to uni. And the uprooting & moving argument doesn't wash with me either - check out the distances between universities in Australia - lot further apart than in the US, I can tell you. Yet people who are motivated & wish to pursue this as a career still move towns to achieve their goals.

    JMHO....
  7. by   Q.
    However, I do see your point. And I agree. (choke - LOL)

    I agree with Susy (now don't all have heart failure!)
    What the heck?! I see a pattern here.... Is agreeing with me taboo?
    Last edit by Susy K on Dec 29, '02
  8. by   Q.
    Originally posted by MishlB
    NEWSFLASH....most patients and their families don't know the difference between CNA, LPN, RN, and NP.
    Now that is a tragedy. Not knowing the difference b/t an aide, a nurse, and a nurse-practitioner is our own damn fault, because, there are vast differences and the public should be informed about WHO is taking care of them. Blurring the lines between them is something WE do and WE allow to be done, and I haven't a clue why.
  9. by   Pretzlgl
    I was just teasing you Suzy..

  10. by   rncountry
    When I went into nursing I was 25 years old, two children and married. I was one of the youngest in my class. If there had been no ADN program I would not have been able to go into nursing for the reasons listed above. A 4 year university was simply not an option no matter what career field I would have choosen. What needs to be realized is that regardless of whether you do a ADN, BSN or Diploma the core nursing classes are basicly the same. Suzy, there is a study out there that I have from Health and Human resources I believe, that shows the demographics of RN's. There are more ADN grads then BSN grads, and I believe there is a reason for that. It does have to do with how many nurses are either in a second career or how many didn't start college until after they had started families, IMHO. I am a proponent of one starting point for everyone who wishes to be a nurse, and personally believe the LPN should be fazed out, but do not necessarily feel that a BSN should be that point of entry. Perhaps that is my own prejudice because in my years of nursing I do see that BSN students come out better prepared than ADN students, if I saw a difference than perhaps I would feel that the BSN nurse is the way to go.
    In my work I see LPNs who are basicly expected to do the job of the RNs for much less pay, and I believe that is crap. The LPNs were I work aren't supposed to take verbal or telephone orders because apparently they can't hear as well as I do, yet they are supposed to be able to do a competant assessement and make decisions based on that assessment, at the same time an RN is supposed to cosign the assessment and sign off the chart at the end of the shift all the while still taking care of their own patients. LPN's also cannot do IVP, which is the majority of our meds, can't hang TPN, or blood, which we do on a regular basis. All this does is create problems between staff and delays for patients. But it really irks me that the LPNs are expected to more or less function in the role of the RN for their patients while getting paid several dollars less an hour. I don't understand why anyone would want to do that.
    The other thing to think about Suzy, is that while ADN programs are touted as 2 year programs for nurses, the vast majority of people who go through the program do not do it in 2 years, they do it in three years. Prereq's and then nursing. I did mine in two years and I never had less than 18 credit hours a semester, my oldest son who started Western Michigan Univerisity this last fall could not even take more than 12 credit hours his first semester, that is a University policy. You know what classes I missed out on by doing an ADN? The history of medical art. The history of Florence Nightengale and nursing. Statistics. One of my best friends finished her BSN at MSU a couple years ago, the BS classes she had to take to do so were nothing more, to me anyway, than a way to increase profits for the school. And she'd be the first one to tell you that everything she needed to have in order to be a nurse was taught to her in the same ADN course she took that I had.
    What needs to be understood I think, is that there are way too many BSN nurses who look down their noses at ADN and Diploma nurses. I know for myself that attitude pisses me off mighty quick. I absolutely hate that " it will make us a profession" as if not having a degree does not make one a professional. Did Tiger Woods go to a 4 year university and get a degree in professional golf? Yet he is still a professional golfer. If one looks up professional in Webster's dictionary the definition given is NOT the definition given by many nursing instuctors. But then an awful lot of them like to make up the rules as they go along so why should that be any different? I agree completely with a standardized education, but that does not mean it has to be a BSN. If we want to model ourselves after the docs should we also do a residency? Should we have a 4 year nursing degree and then another couple years into a speciality so we have nurses who can do just peds or just OB when they get out of school? Should we have programs that are for those that want to do patient care, and another for those that do not intend on doing patient care but need a background in nursing to do what they want to? Things have changed in healthcare after all. You see where I'm going with this right? How much is enough? Or maybe I really did need that course on the history of medical art to be able to do what I do, after all I take pictures of wounds every week, maybe it would have helped me take better, more relevent pictures.
  11. by   rncountry
    I meant I do NOT see BSN students come out more prepared than ADN students.
  12. by   Pretzlgl
    Originally posted by rncountry
    What needs to be understood I think, is that there are way too many BSN nurses who look down their noses at ADN and Diploma nurses. I know for myself that attitude pisses me off mighty quick. I absolutely hate that " it will make us a profession" as if not having a degree does not make one a professional.
    Yep, that's what irks me too...
  13. by   PediRN
    As a manager (please no rotten tomato throwing!!), I have observed that newly graduated ADNs are far more capable as staff nurses than their BSN counterparts. I have been both, and felt better prepared as an ADN graduate to do floor nursing. My BSN was just a piece of paper that I needed to go to graduate school. I learned far more about bedside nursing from my ADN program.

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