Has anyone heard anything about mad cow disease in Canada? - page 3

A couple of months ago the Red Cross sent me away because I had spent time in the UK. I just heard on the radio that MCD's been found in Canada. Is this true?... Read More

  1. by   caroladybelle
    Originally posted by HoJo
    And get no true B vitamins, yeah thats real smart, lol. I'll bet someday vegetarianism will be a risk factor for anemia.
    I am sure that all of those that live vegetarian lives, including pro football players, pro wrestlers and weight lifters that are espoused vegetarians are really worried.
  2. by   2ndCareerRN
    HoJo,

    For you, a kosher primer:

    What Is Kosher?

    The following is an outline of a very intricate and complicated set of rules that make up the laws of Kashruth. It is meant only to provide a general overview of Kashruth. A competent rabbi must always be consulted for proper interpretation and implementation of the law.

    Answer: The Hebrew word "Kasheir," or "Kosher," means fit or proper. When applied to food, the term indicates that an item is fit for consumption according to Jewish law. The word "Kashruth" refers to the general subject of Kosher food.

    There are three categories of Kosher food - Meat, Dairy and Parve (or Pareve).

    1. Meat - For an animal to be Kosher, it must have split hooves and chew its cud. (Examples: cow, goat, lamb.) Non-Kosher animals include pig, horse, camel and rabbit. Kosher fowl include chicken, turkey, goose, and certain duck. Animals and fowl must be slaughtered by a specialist, called a shochet, and then soaked and salted in accordance with Jewish law. All carnivorous (meat-eating) animals and fowl, and the blood of all animals and fowl, and any derivatives or products thereof, are not Kosher.

    2. Dairy - Milk and milk products (cheese, cream, butter, etc.) of a Kosher animal are Kosher-Dairy. These may not be eaten in combination with meat or fowl.

    3. Parve - Foods which contain neither meat nor dairy ingredients are called "Parve." All fruits, grains and vegetables in their natural state are Kosher and Parve. Fish which have fins and scales are Kosher and Parve. Some examples are salmon, halibut and carp. Not Kosher fish species include sturgeon, catfish and swordfish. All shellfish, eel, sharks, underwater mammals, and reptiles are not Kosher. A Parve item can become either dairy or meat when it is cooked together with food in either category. (Example: fish fried in butter is considered dairy, not Parve.)

    Certain grain products and their derivatives, although Kosher the rest of the year, may not be used during Passover. In addition, in many communities legumes are not permitted on Passover. Kosher for Passover items may be made only with utensils that are Kosher for Passover according to Jewish law.

    The separation of meat and dairy products also applies to the utensils used for storing, preparing and serving these foods. Therefore, completely separate sets of pots, dishes, cutlery, etc. must be used for meat and dairy foods. Kosher food prepared in pots used previously for preparing non-Kosher food may become not Kosher.

    And as far as not getting B vitamins because of a vegan lifestyle, perhaps this site can help you out:

    http://www.modernhealthstore.com/tip_bvitamins.htm

    Perhaps you meant to say iron-deficiency anemia because of the difference in heme iron and non-heme iron...but then again, it is not a very large concern:

    Iron is an essential nutrient because it is a central part of hemoglobin which carries oxygen in the blood. Iron deficiency anemia is a worldwide health problem which is especially common in young women and in children.

    Iron is found in food in two forms, heme and non-heme iron. Heme iron, which makes up 40 percent of the iron in meat, poultry, and fish is well absorbed. Non-heme iron, 60 percent of the iron in animal tissue and all the iron in plants (fruits, vegetables, grains, nuts) is less well absorbed. Some might expect that since the vegan diet contains a form of iron which is not that well absorbed, vegans might be prone to developing iron deficiency anemia. However, recent surveys of vegans and vegetarians [1, 2, 3] have shown that iron deficiency anemia is no more common among vegetarians than among the general population.
    http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/iron.htm

    bob
  3. by   HoJo
    well i'll work this in reverse here, lol. i don't have much time to discuss here but perhaps will some other time.

    i researched the post/quote above this one on iron deficiency anemia and came up with some interesting findings. as much as the vegan world would like to discount that redmeat is not an essential part of people's diets it truly is. in fact one of the articles from the reference 2nd career rn quoted acknowledges that hgb is in fact on the bottom end of a normal hgb.

    here's the article once again by dr. mangels
    http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/iron.htm#references

    here's the 1st and only reference i've looked into so far by,

    1. anderson bm, gibson rs, sabry jh: the iron and zinc status of long-term vegetarian women. am j clin nutr 1981; 34: 1042-1048.

    here's the abstract of that article, pay particular attention to the mean hgb levels:

    ref #73 - anderson bm
    so: am-j-clin-nutr. 1981 jun; 34(6): 1042-8
    ab: iron and zinc status of 56 seventh-day adventist canadian women (mean age 52.9 +/- 15.3 yr) following vegetarian diets for 19 +/- 17 yr were investigated. energy, protein, iron, available iron, zinc, and total dietary fiber intakes were calculated from 3-day dietary records. hemoglobin, serum iron, total iron binding capacity, serum and hair zinc concentrations were also determined. plant products provided 92 and 77% of the total dietary iron and zinc intakes, respectively. calculated mean daily intakes (+/- sd) for energy, protein, iron, zinc, and total dietary fiber were 1630 +/- 354 kcal, 58 +/- 14 g, 12.5 +/- 3.0 mg, 9.2 +/- 2.5 mg, and 30.9 +/- 11.0 g, respectively. , calculated serum transferrin saturation (37.5 +/- 12.9%), mean hemoglobin (13.1 +/- 1.0 g/dl) mean serum zinc (99 +/- 24 microgram/dl), and hair zinc concentrations (187 +/- 44 ppm) were all within the normal range. the iron and zinc status of these long-term seventh-day adventist vegetarian women appeared adequate despite their low intake of readily absorbed iron and zinc from flesh foods and their high intake of total dietary fiber and phytate.
    now the mean hgb on 56 different vegan canadian women was 13.1 +/- 1.0 g/dl.

    now i ask you what is a normal hgb? 12-16 in females. here's my reference in case you need, but we are all nurses here, anyways:
    http://www.anemia.com/about/aboutfaq.html

    and the hgb in the vegan canadian group was a mean 13.1 +/- 1.0. that's a little on the low side in my opinion for people who are supposed to have no problem maintianing a normal hgb (in true essence a vegan female canadian could have a 12.1 hgb when it should be 12-16.

    .so what we have here is a hgb on borderline low in a canadian woman eating nothing but veggies.

    hmm 12.1 hgb in a perfectly healthy eating canadian woman and being vegetarian isn't a risk factor for anemia? yeah that really helped em prove a point, lol.

    so what we have here is 1 study done on vegatarian canadian women only, there was no comparison group of red meat eating canadian women to compare to, if they had done it correctly i'm willing to bet they would have found that the meat eating group was significantly higher. however since they didn't account for that we'll never know. the study should have had 3 groups in reality

    1.vegan 19yrs
    2.meat-eating
    3.normal/control group (no changes at all)

    that is simply a very poorly structured study with only one purpose in mind. to convince people that anemia is not a problem in vegans. if it weren't then where were the other 2 control groups. rarely do you ever see a professional study without at least a comparable control group.

    well i'm outta here i've gotta go head to the bar and wash down these 2 burgers i just ate. (the red-meat came from animals that i helped to raise)

    happy posting all, don't worry 2ndcareerrn i'll get to the rest of your post in due time, same for the rest of you who might feel left out, just isn't enough time right now.
  4. by   fergus51
    Pointing out that the average vegetarian is close to being anemic will just make someone point out that the average meant eater is a heart attack waiting to happen. Either lifestyle can be healthy, but I am sure the "average" person isn't ever going to be, no matter which they follow.
  5. by   HoJo
    Honestly I don't even know how we got onto this red-meat vs. vegetarian topic. The post shifted.

    It was intended for Mad Cow Disease and someone brought up the old topic vegetarians. I really don't have anything against vegetarians, I even have a friend who is one. So that doesn't bother me.

    But what does bother me is when someone claims that being a vegetarian is healthier than eating red meat. My friend does not even go that far.

    So in future posts here I'd appreciate it if we just stuck to Mad Cow Disease on this topic.

    If you'd like to start a thread about vegetarianism then feel free.

    Oh and Fergus thanks for bringing us back down to earth on this post.

    Me and my family have raised beef cattle from birth to the time they go to market. Some cows we keep around for 10+ yrs and there have been many a times when I have checked for newborn baby calves at 3 a.m. then found one only to haul it up hill in the middle of an all out South Dakota blizzard sit down in a warming hut and heat the little guy up so that he gets enough strength to stand up in the barn and nurse from his worried mother.

    So I hope some of you realize that 110% we treat our animals very VERY humanely. Kosher or not, all of our cows/calves/steers are treated better than most people treat their own dog.

    Please keep that in mind as this is a very serious issue that is very near and dear to my heart as my family survival and longevity depend upon a viable beef production market.

    Thanks,
    Justin
    Last edit by HoJo on May 27, '03
  6. by   caroladybelle
    Just as a matter of interest, do you deal in veal???

    Just curious.
  7. by   epaminondas
    Vegetarianism.

    One can always point to extreme cases to discredit those with whom one disagrees.

    The Vegetarian can point to the obese MacDonald's-obsessed meat-eating couch potato.

    The Omnivore can point to the scared-of-his-own-shadow anorexic Fruitarian Vegetarian angry-militant-animal-protectionist.

    And I suppose there is truth in both points of view -

    Yes, one can see problems with the occasional teenage junk-food Vegetarian (the potato chip/ McDonald's French fry Vegetarian), the rare Fruitarian ("I don't want to hurt any vegetables!"), the occasional raw foodist, the occasional macrobiotic Vegan who comes to medical attention, and the infants/children of Vegans who have not received adequate Vitamin B12 (the CNS damage to the child is irreversible - I am so sorry).

    But for the most part, practiced in the spirit of moderation and variety - and a little bit of knowledge - vegetarianism is typically as healthy, or more healthy, than a carnivorous diet or an omnivorous diet.

    Now - a good Mad Cow Disease scare is always an excellent time to review the matter of vegetarianism.

    Could vegetarianism - or perhaps just an increased emphasis on plant-based foods and a de-emphasis of certain animal-based foods - such as beef, perhaps - be right for you?

    Well - maybe yes. Maybe no.

    Let us consider the matter together (corrections are welcome):

    ______________________________________________


    The Position Paper of the American Dietetic Association (ADA) on Vegetarian Diets, below.

    (The American Dietetic Association is hardly a hotbed of wild-eyed celery-waving nutrition radicalism ;-)

    Vegetarian Diets -- Position of ADA
    J Am Diet Assoc. 1997;97:1317-1321.

    Scientific data suggest positive relationships between a vegetarian diet and reduced risk for several chronic degenerative diseases and conditions, including obesity, coronary artery disease, hypertension, diabetes mellitus, and some types of cancer. Vegetarian diets, like all diets, need to be planned appropriately to be nutritionally adequate.

    POSITION STATEMENT

    It is the position of The American Dietetic Association (ADA) that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, are nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.

    Vegetarianism in Perspective

    The eating patterns of vegetarians vary considerably. The lacto-ovo-vegetarian eating pattern is based on grains, vegetables, fruits, legumes, seeds, nuts, dairy products, and eggs, and excludes meat, fish, and fowl. The vegan, or total vegetarian, eating pattern is similar to the lacto-ovo-vegetarian pattern except for the additional exclusion of eggs, dairy, and other animal products. Even within these patterns, considerable variation may exist in the extent to which animal products are avoided. Therefore, individual assessment is required to accurately evaluate the nutritional quality of a vegetarian's dietary intake.

    Studies indicate that vegetarians often have lower morbidity (1) and mortality (2) rates from several chronic degenerative diseases than do nonvegetarians. Although nondietary factors, including physical activity and abstinence from smoking and alcohol, may play a role, diet is clearly a contributing factor.

    In addition to the health advantages, other considerations that may lead a person to adopt a vegetarian diet pattern include concern for the environment, ecology, and world hunger issues. Vegetarians also cite economic reasons, ethical considerations, and religious beliefs as their reasons for following this type of diet pattern. Consumer demand for vegetarian options has resulted in increasing numbers of foodservices that offer vegetarian options. Presently, most university foodservices offer vegetarian options.

    Health Implications of Vegetarianism

    Vegetarian diets low in fat or saturated fat have been used successfully as part of comprehensive health programs to reverse severe coronary artery disease (3,4). Vegetarian diets offer disease protection benefits because of their lower saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein content and often higher concentration of folate (which reduces serum homocysteine levels) (5), antioxidants such as vitamins C and E, carotenoids, and phytochemicals (6). Not only is mortality from coronary artery disease lower in vegetarians than in nonvegetarians (7), but vegetarian diets have also been successful in arresting coronary artery disease (8,9). Total serum cholesterol and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels are usually lower in vegetarians, but high-density lipoprotein cholesterol and triglyceride levels vary depending on the type of vegetarian diet followed (10).

    Vegetarians tend to have a lower incidence of hypertension than nonvegetarians (11). This effect appears to be independent of both body weight and sodium intake. Type 2 diabetes mellitus is much less likely to be a cause of death in vegetarians than nonvegetarians, perhaps because of their higher intake of complex carbohydrates and lower body mass index (12).

    Incidence of lung and colorectal cancer is lower in vegetarians than in nonvegetarians (2,13). Reduced colorectal cancer risk is associated with increased consumption of fiber, vegetables, and fruit (14,15). The environment of the colon differs notably in vegetarians compared with nonvegetarians in ways that could favorably affect colon cancer risk (16,17). Lower breast cancer rates have not been observed in Western vegetarians, but cross-cultural data indicate that breast cancer rates are lower in populations that consume plant-based diets (18). The lower estrogen levels in vegetarian women may be protective (19).

    A well-planned vegetarian diet may be useful in the prevention and treatment of renal disease. Studies using human being and animal models suggest that some plant proteins may increase survival rates and decrease proteinuria, glomerular filtration rate, renal blood flow, and histologic renal damage compared with a nonvegetarian diet (20,21) . . .

    http://www.eatright.org/adap1197.html

    __________________________________________________ ______________

    The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) - again, hardly a hotbed of wild-eyed radical nutrition radicalism - recognized the validity of Vegetarian diets as of the Fourth Edition of the Dietary Guidelines for Americans (1995) :

    << What about vegetarian diets?

    Some Americans eat vegetarian diets for reasons of culture, belief, or health. Most vegetarians eat milk products and eggs, and as a group, these lacto-ovo-vegetarians enjoy excellent health. Vegetarian diets are consistent with the Dietary Guidelines for Americans and can meet Recommended Dietary Allowances for nutrients. You can get enough protein from a vegetarian diet as long as the variety and amounts of foods consumed are adequate. Meat, fish, and poultry are major contributors of iron, zinc, and B vitamins in most American diets, and vegetarians should pay special attention to these nutrients.

    Vegans eat only food of plant origin. Because animal products are the only food sources of vitamin B12, vegans must supplement their diets with a source of this vitamin. In addition, vegan diets, particularly those of children, require care to ensure adequacy of vitamin D and calcium, which most Americans obtain from milk products. >>

    http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/dga/dga95/variety.html


    Much additional information has since been accepted in the five years between the Fourth Edition (1995) and the Fifth Edition (2000) of the USDA's Dietary Guidelines for Americans.

    For example, calcium balance is not near the problem in Vegetarians that was once thought, as there is actually quite a bit of calcium in plant sources.

    Think - where do you suppose milk cows get their calcium from?

    Calcium balance is actually more affected by calcium excretion than by calcium intake, by a ratio of approximately three-to-one. Calcium is excreted in the urine at a significantly higher rate when protein, salt and/or phosphates (cola drinks) are excreted - they pull out calcium along with them. Americans average twice the RDA of protein and tend to overindulge in regard to salt and soda (Americans currently drink over 1/2 of their fluids a day as soft drinks).

    Hip fracture rates are actually lower in countries with low animal protein/dairy intake than in countries with high animal protein/dairy intake. So - a little moderation in regard to protein, salt and cola will go a long way in maintaining an appropriate calcium balance - and bone health.

    Vitamin D is easily obtained from a relatively small amount of sunlight (five-fifteen minutes on hands and face daily is typically sufficient), and is stored in the body for quite a while. If one is concerned, supplements are readily available.

    Dietary iron is readily available via vegetarian sources, and is generally not a problem. If you are concerned and want more - hey, eat more of the appropriate beans, whole grains and veggies with plenty of vitamin C containing foods along with them to increase iron absorption. If you are really concerned, cook acidic foods (e.g., tomato sauce) in an iron pot - you will get plenty of iron. If you are really, really concerned, sea vegetables have a ton of iron in them.

    If you are aware of what you are doing, iron is just not a problem.

    Zinc is readily available in whole grains, legumes, veggies, and nuts - which is a lot of your basic Vegetarian menu, anyway. Zinc need not be a problem.

    Vegetarians actually intake a higher amount of magnesium than do omnivores (magnesium is at the center of the chlorophyl molecule, somewhat analogous to the way that iron is at the center of the hemoglobin molecule). Good for bones and for lowering blood pressure.

    Vegetarians generally have higher potassium intake that omnivores, as well. Helpful in calcium retention and in lowering blood pressure.

    Folate intake tends to be higher in Vegetarians than in omnivores. Good for reducing neural tube defects in fetuses, and in lowering homocysteine levels in regard to warding off heart disease in adults.

    The real concern in Vegetarian nutrition is in regard to vitamin B12 in Vegans, which does need to be supplemented, particularly in female Vegans of childbearing age - the fetus and infant do not absorb stored maternal B12, but must obtain B12 from the mother's diet. So even if the mother has enough for her own needs stored in her tissues, the fetus/nursing infant can starve for B12 - with irreversible negative effect to the child's CNS - if supplementation is not performed.


    The Fifth Edition of the USDA Dietary Guidelines for Americans (2000) has become much more succinct in regard to Vegetarianism than was the Fourth Edition. The Fifth Edition now simply states:

    << Vegetarian diets can be consistent with the Dietary Guidelines for Americans, and meet Recommended Dietary Allowances for nutrients. >>

    http://www.health.gov/dietaryguidelines/dga2000

    But it is best to know what you are doing.

    __________________________________________________ __________

    The best source that I have seen for dietary information about Vegetarianism is:

    The Dietitian's Guide to Vegetarian Diets by Mark and Virginia Messina
    511 pages, ISBN 0834206358, 1996, $66 new.

    __________________________________________________ __________

    Vegetarian Food Pyramids:

    http://www.famousveggie.com/vegfoodpyramid.cfm

    http://www.weight-loss-i.com/vegetar...od-pyramid.htm


    __________________________________________________ __________

    Vegan Food Pyramids:

    http://vegan.uchicago.edu/nutrition/nutrition1.html

    http://www.fitnessandfreebies.com/fitness/veganfgp.html

    http://www.nutrispeak.com/veganpyramid.htm

    __________________________________________________ _________

    If you are concerned about Vegetarianism and protein, all your answers can be found right here:

    Diet for a Small Planet by Frances Moore Lappe
    20th Anniversary Edition - 1992. New - $7.00
    The useful information is in Appendix C and D at the back of the book - a mere 41 pages. The rest of the 479 page book, for me, was largely dross.

    __________________________________________________ __________

    If you are interested in Vegetarianism and weight loss:

    Eat More, Weigh Less by Dean Ornish, M.D.
    448 pages, 200. $10.50 new.

    __________________________________________________ __________

    If you are interested in Vegetarianism and the possible reversal of cardiovascular disease:

    Dr. Dean Ornish's Program for Reversing Heart Disease
    672 pages, 1990. $8 new.
    Ornish is coming out with a new edition in January 2004 - probably best to wait.

    __________________________________________________ __________

    Vitamin supplements.

    By and large, for a lot of reasons, it is best to obtain one's nutrition from foods and not become a vitamin pill-popper. Many reasons.

    Still, if you are a Vegetarian, there may come a time when you consider a multivitamin or possibly B12 supplementation. If you are a cardiovascular disease patient, you may at some point consider B-vitamin supplementation for homocysteine reduction. Etc. Then one is faced with the question: what is a good source of vegetarian vitamin supplementation?

    Well - one day I called up a well-known everyday drugstore multivitamin supplement company and asked for a list of ingredients. As the customer service fellow rattled the ingredients off over the telephone, he finally got to ". . . pork bile, pork pancreas . . . " - and, well, I just kinda lost it. Enough. I decided it was time to look for a reputable Vegan supplier of vitamin supplements. So I called up a few Vegetarian publications, and was surprised to get the same recommendation from all sources:

    www.freedavitamins.com

    I have no affiliation with Freeda Vitamins - I am now just a satisfied customer.

    Prices are low and they have apparently been around for a long time.

    And they seem to have a good reputation.

    __________________________________________________ ______

    Prostate Cancer is the most common cancer in males

    HERBS AND SUPPLEMENTS TO AVOID (bottom of web page)
    (Alpha-linolenic acid/flaxseed oil, chondroitin sulfate, St. John's Wort, Kava-kava, NAC)

    www.proatateforum.com/infotoknow.htm

    __________________________________________________ ______

    Red meat and cancer.

    All the materials below are from the American Cancer Society (not exactly a group of wild-eyed zealots):

    << High intake of red meat appears to increase the risk of colon cancer. Someone who eats seven or more servings a week has a 50 percent greater risk of colon cancer than someone who eats less than one serving a month, according to the report. In addition, the report says those who consume five or more servings a day of vegetables and fruit cut their colon cancer risk by 30 percent. The ACS recommends choosing most of the foods you eat from plant sources, including five or more servings of fruits and vegetables each day. >>

    http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/co...ancer_Risk.asp


    << Although meats are good sources of high-quality protein and supply many important vitamins and minerals, consumption of meat--especially red meats--has been linked to cancers at several sites, most notably colon and prostate. >>

    http://www.cancer.org/docroot/MED/co...prevention.asp


    Screening, Prevention Can Lower Colon Cancer Rates:

    << Avoid eating a lot of red meat-it can raise risk by 50%, partly because of the kinds of fats in it.>>

    http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/co...ncer_Rates.asp


    << A diet mostly of foods that are high in fat, especially from animal sources, can increase your risk of colorectal cancer. Instead, the American Cancer Society recommends choosing most of your foods from plant sources and limiting your intake of high-fat foods such as those from animal sources. The ACS also recommends eating at least 5 servings of fruits and vegetables every day and several servings of other foods from plant sources such as breads, cereals, grain products, rice, pasta, or beans. Many fruits and vegetables contain substances that interfere with the process of cancer formation. >>

    http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...p?sitearea=CRI

    __________________________________________________ ______


    We used to raise cattle for meat on our acreage.

    We no longer do.


    All the best,

    Epaminondas

    __________________________________________________ ______
    BSE/CJD

    From the Canadian Press:

    A problem waiting to happen
    May. 26, 2003. 09:24 AM
    http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...=1052251623792

    Complacency is real killer in mad cow
    May. 26, 2003. 12:41 PM
    http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...=1052251652029

    Is it safe to eat beef?
    May. 27, 2003. 02:02 PM
    http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...=1052251661527


    From the U.S. Press:

    Mad cow sparks dog food recall
    Posted 5/27/2003 9:53 AM
    http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...-dogfood_x.htm


    From the British Press:

    British buy American Blood:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/bse/articl...861529,00.html


    From the Australian Press:

    The Australian Surgery Study:
    By Jennifer Cooke
    September 3 2002
    Surgery increases the risk of fatal brain disorder
    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/...953437699.html


    U.S. Government:

    FDA Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE) page:
    http://www.fda.gov/oc/opacom/hottopics/bse.html

    CDC BSE and CJD page:
    http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/cjd/cjd.htm
  8. by   HoJo
    Carol. No, our family has never dealt with veal and the farm has been in our family since the early 1930's. I am not aware of any farmers my surrounding area either who deal with veal.

    epaminondas

    Please take you post and post it elsewhere, I in no way see how your post is related to MCD. I stated this earlier:

    So in future posts here I'd appreciate it if we just stuck to Mad Cow Disease on this topic.

    If you'd like to start a thread about vegetarianism then feel free.
    You post looks interesting but I don't have one hour to read it.

    But please post that post elsewhere not here. This thread is about MCD, not salad shooting
  9. by   2ndCareerRN
    Hojo

    This is obviously a subject that is near and dear to your heart, or else you are deathly afraid of vegans. I am not sure which.

    Please take you post and post it elsewhere
    I feel this remark was totally inappropriate. This board emulates a living, breathing conversation. As such, it will twist and weave around many subjects before it is done. As in real life it is not uncommon for one subject to lead to another, and another.

    If you want to refute the post that was made by epaminondas then do so. Don't make a glib remark and tell her/him to take the post elsewhere.

    BTW: I think you are making an assumption that some of here are vegans, yet you do not know us. Perhaps we just believe in educating ourselves about the food produts we ingest.

    bob
  10. by   caroladybelle
    Originally posted by HoJo
    Please take you post and post it elsewhere, I in no way see how your post is related to MCD.
    But please post that post elsewhere not here. This thread is about MCD, not salad shooting
    I find the phrase "salad shooting" in reference to vegetarianism, more than a bit condescending, even though I am not a vegetarian.

    I suggest respectfully that you might want to take the attitude someplace else.

    Is vegetarianism a legitimate topic in a discussion about CJD/MCD?

    If I had a couple that had one partner that was HIV+ and one partner HIV-, and they asked about transmission rates and avoiding the spread of the disease, I of course would discuss ALL methods of minimizing/avoiding infection. So abstinence would enter discussion, as well other ways of minimizing risk.

    Thus posters are discussing the ways that CJD/MCD is spread and legitimate ways to minimize/avoid risk. Thus, labeling issues, organics, knowing the sources of meat, and vegetarianism are all relevant topics.

    We are nurses and we must be able to discuss these issues if we are to help the public deal with these issues.
  11. by   HoJo
    I'll just repost my earlier post for those of you who are too wrapped up with vegetarianism to read.

    Honestly I don't even know how we got onto this red-meat vs. vegetarian topic. The post shifted.

    It was intended for Mad Cow Disease and someone brought up the old topic vegetarians. I really don't have anything against vegetarians, I even have a friend who is one. So that doesn't bother me.

    But what does bother me is when someone claims that being a vegetarian is healthier than eating red meat. My friend does not even go that far.

    So in future posts here I'd appreciate it if we just stuck to Mad Cow Disease on this topic.

    If you'd like to start a thread about vegetarianism then feel free.
    I know I will get more backlash from 2ndcareer and carolady but I don't like to repeat myself, so I just quoted myself.

    I will refrain from making any more negative comments about vegetarianism but you have got to remember my background I LIVE ON A RANCH IN SOUTH DAKOTA!! I RAISE CATTLE!! Duh, of course I don't agree with vegetarianism. So don't sit here and try and pick apart my posts on one single topic about vegetarianism. Cause there's no way that I'm going to sit here and let it pass that a vegetarian is "healthier" than a meat eater because I don't buy it. I have seen people who smoke drink eat bacon every morning live well into their 90's and I have seen a lady who exercised EVERY day ate NO red meat and she died from a AAA, she was in her mid 50's. So you can take yer vegetarianism elsewhere.

    This post is about MCD and I'm sure by now everyone on this entire board knows that vegetarianism is an option. I mean most in here have a college degree and are well aware of their options to not eat red-meat.

    Now back to the original topic at hand.

    Now at the minimum I'd like to see the Alberta borders shutdown for at least 8 yrs since the incubation period can be anywhere from 2-10yrs as I stated earlier.

    Sorry this post had to turn ugly but I guess some people around here thought they had to turn a legitimate concern about MCD into a post on vegetarianism.

    MCD is in Alberta and Britain and that's where it shall stay.
  12. by   2ndCareerRN
    HoJo said:
    Honestly I don't even know how we got onto this red-meat vs. vegetarian topic.
    Could it be because Angus said:
    A good case for becomming vegitarian
    At which point HoJo quoted Angus and added:
    And get no true B vitamins, yeah thats real smart, lol. I'll bet someday vegetarianism will be a risk factor for anemia.
    A statement that implied a vegan diet was less healty than one that includeds meat. At that point some people attempted to educate HoJo about the fallacy of the statement, which brought an immediate cry of foul from HoJo, and the admonation to take the posts about vegetarianism elsewhere.

    Sorry Hojo, life is not like that. This discussion could very well take another twist or two before it is over. That is the way conversation works. Why, you just never know where it will go. Perhaps in the direction you woiuld like it to go. Perhaps not.

    Sorry this post had to turn ugly but I guess some people around here thought they had to turn a legitimate concern about MCD into a post on vegetarianism.
    This has not become a post about vegeterianism. It is a post on the fact that BSE was found in a Canadian cow, and the implications it could have in the US. It is also a post about kosher food, vegetarianism, and that a vegan lifestyle does not subject one to a host of non-meat eating maladies. If you want to call that backlash, have at it.

    bob
  13. by   caroladybelle
    I stick with my post.

    Some doors are merely closed - others are nailed shut

    And a rare few would require a couple of pounds of C4 to blast open.
    Last edit by caroladybelle on May 30, '03

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