Does Gender Affect Our Views On Pay?

[TheCommuter]

The other day I was involved in a cyber 'chat' with a user on another popular social networking site who happens to be a nurse in a different state than the one in which I reside. Even though this person has never met me in person or worked with me one single day in our lives, she typed, "You're probably one of those lazy nurses who wants top dollar for minimal work."

Instead of stumbling into the knee-jerk reaction of taking immediate offense, I remained cognizant that people can become antagonistic when cloaked by the anonymity of the vast world wide web. I also set aside a brief moment to perform some self reflection. Am I lazy? Do I do minimal work? Well, my bosses at my workplace don't seem to think so, as evidenced by the excellent employee performance review I recently received.

Do I want top dollar for the work that I perform? Well, I'd most certainly be lying through my teeth if I said no.

Educated Professions Dominated Women

Take a long, hard look at the educated professions that are dominated by women. Nursing, social work, school teaching, library science, and psychology are the college majors and professions that are overwhelmingly occupied by females. With the lone exception of nursing, these careers offer some of the lowest starting salaries in the US. It is not a coincidence that the lowest-paying professions in the entire country are taken up by women, whereas the highest-paying professions are filled with men. Something historical is in play.

Many female nurses make statements such as, "The money doesn't matter to me," or "I would do this job for free." They have the tendency to hem, haw and gently beat around the bush when it comes to discussing salaries, raises, and issues that revolve around compensation, even when they're living from paycheck to paycheck. Many women are reluctant to negotiate.

Men Place Greater Significance On Compensation

Meanwhile, countless men who take up nursing are not afraid to openly discuss pay rates and salaries. When receiving what they perceive to be a job offer with a lowball starting salary, it is not uncommon for male nurses to attempt to negotiate for a higher pay rate, become amused at the interviewer, or even walk away from the offer altogether. I know that my following comment might drum up some controversy, but I feel that men place a greater significance on compensation than their female counterparts.

Think about it. Even in entry-level jobs such as serving and waiting tables, male waiters generally opt for the places where more money can be made through bigger tips and gratuities such as steakhouses, casual dining eateries, fine dining establishments, and restaurants on the grounds of country clubs. Although female servers do work at more upscale places, it is also normal to see a virtually all-female staff at low-cost family dining restaurants such as the Waffle House, Denny's, IHOP, and cafes where less tips are generated due to the substantially lower meal prices.

I'm a nurse who works hard and deals with various challenges during the course of a routine shift. Therefore, I feel no shame in my game for wanting a competitive pay rate for all the services that I render. Anyone who says that "The money doesn't matter" is selling herself short.

It's time to negotiate a Higher Salary!

[lindarn]

Nursing will always be found in the negative side of the balance sheet, because the PTB want it to remain that way.

Until nursing starts to bill for their services, our professional services will continue to be rolled in with the room rate, housekeeping, and the complimentary roll of toilet paper.

We provide our services to the patients, get not credit for it, while RT continues to bill for drawing an Arterial Blood Gas, while if I draw the same Arterial Blood gas it is part of the room rate in the ICU. Why is that?

Again, because the PTB want to keep our services and profile from being seen as money makers for the hospital, and keep our professional services considered worthless.

This is stuff that needs to be taught in nursing shool. The economics of health care. Spare me the nonsense that all you want to learn is how to be a nurse. That attitude has kept nursing in the 19th Century. Nurses ARE MONEYMAKERS FOR THE HOSPITAL. We need to quit being the, "martry marys", that we are. We will NEVER GET OUT PIECE OF THE PIE, until we demand that our professional services be recognized.

JMHO and my NY $0.02.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Somewhere in the PACNW

[HM-8404, BSN, RN]

MN-Nurse said:

You are confused about the nurse's effect on the revenue stream, and on the business model in general.

Let's say an MD orders an antibiotic but the hospital fires all the nurses (they cost the company money) and there is no one around to administer it. Patient never gets meds, hospital can't bill for any service.

Now let's say there is a nurse around to administer. The bills can now go out.

Which option gives you more revenue?

OK. Let's use your same scenario. The MD orders an antibiotic but the hospital does not have any (Antibiotics cost the company money). The patient does not get the med, hospital can't treat the patient therefore they can't bill for any services. In your example the MD can actually administer the med. It would not be efficient but can be done. In the balance sheet of a hospital a nurse is just like a med, or a piece of equipment, or a shower curtain. They are just part of the cost of doing business.

I am well versed in how business operates. You have two expenses, revenue positive and revenue negative.

[amygarside]

Great job in handling the situation. I also like your honesty about how nurses should be paid.

[lemur00, BSN, RN]

I noted in another thread that nursing is a high paying profession for a woman. There are various reasons for that, but generally women aren't expected to make that much, unless they go into a traditional "male" profession. I mentioned that traditionally they were second incomes in the other thread. I also think the work women do (those noted are all "caregiving" professions in one way or another) is just not valued in our society as something that deserves monetary reward. But most of all, people often regard female dominated professions with a jaundiced eye of martyrdom and submission. As they are usually caregiving professions it becomes easier to manipulate the often altruistic personalities attracted to them. People who want to make a difference because they care can be pretty easily duped by a plain old guilt trip.

My father was a teacher and union rep and was always annoyed at how his profession could be bullied by employers intimating they were bad or lazy teachers for just wanting to be paid (sound familiar?). Teachers MUST do extra things they don't get paid for...or they would if they really cared about our poor children's future!! He of course was not taken in by this rhetoric at all, but many of his co-workers were. They refused to play hardball (teachers strike in JUNE) and never really improved their situation.

That kind of manipulative behaviour has unfortunately always worked on the people attracted by these professions (most of whom are women), and being taken in by it means you lose respect from others. No one would say "Lawyers should do extra things for free...or they would if their clients mattered!" Lawyers would probably say "yeah, well I'm not here to care. So here's your bill".

Interestingly, to the op, there are a few studies I've read showing that men who nurse often excel where women don't, and not because they are necessarily better at the work. At my old facility we called it "cock of the walk syndrome". Men do sometimes command a certain amount of respect just because they are male, especially with older persons. And as a woman who isn't particularly feminine, I know the social sanctions for going against type are many.

[HM-8404, BSN, RN]

I was thinking about something. What male dominated profession, that only requires an Associates Degree pays more than nursing? I have said for quite a while that nursing's low educational requirements are a hinderance to the profession as a whole.

[lindarn]

AMEN!!

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

SOMEWHERE IN THE PACNW

[CheesePotato, BSN, RN]

HM-8404 said:

I was thinking about something. What male dominated profession, that only requires an Associates Degree pays more than nursing? I have said for quite a while that nursing's low educational requirements are a hinderance to the profession as a whole.

An ADN takes and passes the same NCLEX as a BSN. I don't know if such a comment was meant to come across negatively towards ADN nurses, but many ADN nurses I have the great joy of working with can nurse circles around BSN nurses. And at the end of the day, when they sign their logs, the signatures end the same: RN.

[wooh, BSN, RN]

CheesePotato said:

And at the end of the day, when they sign their logs, the signatures end the same: RN.

The quality of nursing care given by ADNs doesn't have anything to do with the reality that lower education levels generally correlate with lower pay in the world outside nursing.

[joanna73, BSN, RN]

We are unionized, so everyone is paid the same, according to years experience. As it should be. However, I would agree that gender does affect our views of pay and the nursing profession as a whole.

[PMFB-RN, RN]

SionainnRN said:

At the hospitals I've worked at pay is based on years of experience. So there's no hemming and hawing about asking for more or negotiating, there is only one pay for your years of experience. And then there's your yearly review and cost of living raise which is also standard. So it doesn't matter if you have balls or ovaries, if you walk out of an interview expecting them to increase your starting pay you'd be SOL.

*** Ya that's what they want you to believe. If they want you bad enough then that mightnot be the case. I was recruited by a small communiy hospital with a brand new open heart program. The CV surgeon they hired was a doc I had worked with for years at my then current job. He had asked the nurse manager to hire me, an experienced open heart nurse (none of the other nurses had any open heart experience).

When I interviewed they had a strict pay-based-on-experience offer hat simply wasn't enough to get me to work there. When I turned down the job here was a flutter of activity among the unit manager and nurse recruiter, phone calls made and huddels out of my ear shot. Next thing I knew hey come back and tell that all of a suddenly they were going to recognize my years of LPN experiences he same as years of RN experience. This resuled in me being much higher on the pay scale. I took the job but I was fully ready to walk away if the money haden't been there. (I am a man)

[DizzyLizzyNurse]

CheesePotato said:

I commend you for holding your tongue. Seriously. I would have verbally disemboweled this person. And then danced in their tears.

This is hilarious.

I never understood the whole "nurses cost the hospital money instead of making the hospital money" argument. If there are high infection rates, it costs the hospital money. We see the patients more, therefore they are more likely to catch something from us rather than the doctor. If someone receives poor nursing care or the nurses are rude, they will sometimes go to a different hospital. Stuff like that.

[lindarn]

Nurses really do not get it. The real issue is CONTROL OVER THE NURSING PROFESSION!!

They really do not care about what we bring to the table, in terms of our expertise, and improvements in patient outcomes.

The PTB, are TERRIFIED of nurses finally coming together, speaking in ONE VOICE, and taking control over our profession!

DEMANDING BETTER PAY, BENEFITS, WORKING CONDITIONS, instead of using the, "'may I'", negative", attitude that too many nurses use when dealing with administration. Deferring to individuals who do not have the patients best interests in mind. Only the bottom line.

JMHO and my NY $0.02.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Somewhere in the PACNW