Doctor Asked For A "Kind" Nurse

[LasVegasRN]

Let me preface this thread by stating a few things:

1. I'm not posting this thread to bash certain religions, I'm posting to vent, gain understanding, and get a variety of views.

2. Whatever your belief, please respect the beliefs of others.

That said, I admit to not understanding how parents can stand by and watch their child bleed to death.

Teenager, throwing up blood for 2 days, H & H 6.1 and 17.0. Platelets 14. WBC 1.0. Pancytopenia. A religion that does not allow blood products or transfusions. Essentially we will be watching this patient die. As the majority of us know, some fresh frozen plasma, units of packed cells, the ability to SAFELY do an EGD and the patient would be discharged home in about 2 days.

Instead, in 4 hours when the next CBC was done, the Hgb was down to 5.8.

I overheard the attending doc asking the charge nurse to assign a "kind" nurse as this was a "difficult" case. I felt that was unnecessary, because as hard as it is for all of us to watch this, we still treat the patient and family with compassion.

My main point: I'm hoping someone could explain to me, how in the world can you stand by and allow your child to die?

Harsh question, and I'm sure an age-old question, but I do not and can not understand it.

[andal]

Ella:

As a matter of information, after studying the issue of FGM - it is NOT a religious matter. There are no statutes in any major religion that advocate FGM as part of religious life. It has been found to be purely a cultural matter.

While it has been long associated with Islam, there is nothing in religious law mandating it. It occurs predominately in North Africa, the Middle East , SE Europe. It occurs among Christians (generally Coptic), Muslims, and many Animistic religions. It is generally used to insure female purity.

Thank you - we will return to the discussion at large.

__________________

I am from SE Europe and I have never heard about this procedure having done! For goodnes sake, Christians there consider the circumsicion Muslim custom!

However, FGM is widespread social custom among the both the Christians and Muslims of the North Africa (Egypt, Somalia, Sudan etc.) and it has nothing to do with religion.

On the main theme:

My Hare Krishna friend had her two children almost taken away by a social worker in '80, here in US.

Reason: Social worker told her she is endangering children by keeping them on lacto-vegetarian diet... I guess she thought Mac and fries were balanced diet.

What I want to say was that we should always exercise possibility that other peoples decisions, no matter how strange to us, are maybe right thing to do.

BTW, I loooove this website. Very informative, and entertaining.

[Displcdarin]

I feel somethings in life are hard to hear much less be a part of or see, but remember that as you go about your job, it isn't our place to ask WHY? it is our place to DO. What we do is help people cope with their health care problems. Some people choose to follow that path which leads to death due to their cultural or religious beliefs and as health care providers we have to accept that and do our jobs.

[BBFRN, BSN, PhD]

Very well put, Displcdarin.

[5150dx]

Gee,

I haven't even made it all the way through the posts and I am still stunned. The twisted interpretation of the scriptures stuns me. Of course, I do not give any "holy" significance to the bible or any other work of man, anyway. Donated blood is just that... donated... all the examples listed are of blood taken violently or by taking advantage of someone or something. The tribal laws of the jewish people were most obviously for health reasons - living in houses with mould, etc. In my opinion, that is how the blood one should be interpreted, as well as considering any violence or "sin" associated with the taking of the blood.

I guess it is things like this that have caused me to turn away from most any "organized" religion - once I started studying independently I found the material to be simply man-made. When I read biblical passages where "God" states that the enemies children's heads will be bashed upon stones, I decided this was not any "god" I will believe in. Sorry, if I offended anyone. It just makes me so sad to see deception of good people.

[mattsmom81]

This is a hard issue. But religious beliefs must also be respected. Even if we disagree. I've run into families who will not even listen to required teaching (informed consequences of the decision to refuse) They are angry by the time I see them...too many docs/nurses have attempted to coerce them, as they see it.

The only cases I know of where the child has been treated against the parents' religious wishes are cases where abuse and neglect can be proved. This issue may override the religious conviction. But all the proper channels must be followed.

The patient has the right...to refuse. It isn't easy to watch the consequences of refusal, though, is it. Particularly with a child who is not making his/her OWN decision.

I would bet a healthcare worker who has an ethical/moral dilemna providing care in this type of situation could legally ask to be excused from the case.

[greatshakes]

Hi

I don't know if you get a TV show called All saints" over there but they had this very issue on last night. The daughter was hit by a four wheel drive and father said no blood products. However fiance begged them to give blood as she was no longer a practising JW. She finally bled out and died on OR table because the guardianship board took too long to make a ruling. It's a hard call too. All the staff was in favour of giving blood and felt that the fiance should have the final call as she was engaged and over age of consent and was not carrying a 'No blood products" card in her wallet.. Are there any other religions that have this belief?

[ZASHAGALKA, RN]

*ALERT First off, this is a 2 yr old thread. ALERT* (And I didn't bring it back up)

~~~~~

About the worse turn of events I've ever witnessed was a 21 yr old from a JW family unconscious and needing a tranfusion. Parents said NO!

Live-in BF said she wasn't practicing and actually, didn't speak to her parents over it. (They actually didn't know she was living with a guy.)

Doc was going to obey Parent's wishes as NOK until BF pulled the trump card:

She's my common law wife.

Wow.

So, judge got involved, what a mess. Bottom line: BF proved that she lived with him - an obvious violation of the religion - and Parents couldn't prove she was actively practicing. They couldn't provide any members to vouch for her current participation in church. BF was granted legal right to speak for her.

Transfusion proceeded.

After the fact: when she came around - she completely denied being his common law 'wife' , "He's just my bf. . ."

But,

She also denied being a JW and was glad she got the blood: "That's my parent's religion; not mine."

So, do the ends justify the means???? These kinds of ethics are so tough.

~faith,

Timothy.

[Elsbet]

I'm an Oncology nurse...deal with death and dying (and things that are far worse) all the time. Can't even begin to wrap my mind around letting ANYONE die like this, much less my own child....eeee!

[PANurseRN1]

Can this thread be closed before it turns into a free-for-all bashing someone's faith? I might not agree with Scientology, either, but it would be inappropriate to denigrate it. (Besides which, it is a very old thread, and the matter has probably long since been resolved.)

Faith is very important to some of our patients; you cannot underestimate how much it can play into a patient's recovery. It's really inappropriate to criticize so severely something you don't understand, no matter what that person's faith may be.

[greatshakes]

PR NurseRN1

But are we criticising really?. From what I gathered we were just discussing the differences between customs and as nurses we will be called on at times to exercise discretion. I know at one lecture years ago on multi-culturalism I asked about our attitudes towards FGM or female circumcision and the entire auditorium was told "it doesn't happen" by the lecturer. You should have heard the comments from students. This person was in a highly regarded educational role and this is what she is telling students. We are all going to see things we don't like or agree with out in the health field. We may have to accept it but we need to know the customs that particular people embrace and still serve them with dignity and respect. That is why I asked if any other religion held the view of not accepting blood products.

[PANurseRN1]

I think the old posts (which I just went back and read, one by one) answer the new questions amply, and there's no point in asking that which has already been answered.

Just read the old posts.