Can Someone Be a Nurse Without Jean Watson?? - page 23

Ok now, as I delve back INTO nursing philosophy and theories, I come across, again, the theories of Jean Watson that have been hailed as the greatest thing since polyurethane IV bags - The Caring... Read More

  1. by   Tweety
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    I completely disrespect your opinion, it's biased and insulting. And if you plan to step on MY toes to advance your cause, I'll step back.

    I AM THE BEST THAT NURSING HAS TO OFFER. And I will challenge anybody and everybody that says otherwise.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.

    Timothy, I'm only saying that I respect the other poster's opinion.

    I wasn't saying that I agreed with that opinion, but I'm not the least bit bothered by it. If that's biased and insulting to you, so be it.

    Did you note, that I'm an ADN nurse too? I'm not going to brag I'm the best nursing has to offer, but I will challenge any BSN on the floor if they think they are better than me. But I'm not getting into the ADN is the best nurse with you or anyone.
    Last edit by Tweety on Jul 16, '05
  2. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from Tweety
    Timothy, I'm only saying that I respect the other poster's opinion.

    I wasn't saying that I agreed with that opinion, but I'm not the least bit bothered by it. If that's biased and insulting to you, so be it.

    Did you note, that I'm an ADN nurse too? I'm not going to brag I'm the best nursing has to offer, but I will challenge any BSN on the floor if they think they are better than me. But I'm not getting into the ADN is the best nurse with you or anyone.
    I know you weren't, I was still addressing my comments backwards. Sorry.

    I don't respect the other poster's opinion. That's what I was saying.

    And I'll challenge ANYBODY that says that my everyday efforts 'diminish' nursing because I don't have initials after my name that nobody notices anyway.

    That's a BSN program brainwash that has no basis in the real world.

    It's my opinion that the potential gain from BSN entry is more than offset by the hurt dealt to nursing by this very debate. This very debate is the reason why ANA has neutered itself: who wants to join an organization that ridicules them? As a result, we have no national voice.

    I can respect the BSN only entry position: but not when it aims the 'N' word (technical) at me. At that point, and rightly so, my feathers get ruffled.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
  3. by   mtnmom
    a BSN curriculum offers more than just theory, leadership, and so on as alluded to in the previous posts.

    It has pathophysiology (understanding the WHY is so important)

    It has research courses, that make a nurse more able to read and interpret professional journals and/or research studies relevant to his/her field of practice. Last time I checked, we are doing evidence-based practice, after all.

    There is also more focus on the written and spoken word. For nurses to gain the respect we need, we must be able to effectively communicate.

    I have the utmost respect for ADN and diploma nurses - don't get me wrong. Just please don't dismiss a BSN curriculum as a bunch of extra "crap" either.

    Bottom line: Why would anyone want to go through what we go through as nurses if he or she did not care about their patients? Seems like self-torture to me. The caring is what keeps me going much of the time. It is my psychological fuel.
  4. by   Tweety
    Timothy, I also would like to add that I respect your opinion and I definately agree with you more. Especially agree with "And I'll challenge ANYBODY that says that my everyday efforts 'diminish' nursing because I don't have initials after my name that nobody notices anyway.That's a BSN program brainwash that has no basis in the real world."

    You're an advocate with confidence.

    I wish there were an easier way to advocate the BSN as the goal for entry level nursing without ruffling too many feathers or stepping on toes. Because it's not a bad idea.
    Last edit by Tweety on Jul 16, '05
  5. by   Tweety
    Quote from mtnmom
    a BSN curriculum offers more than just theory, leadership, and so on as alluded to in the previous posts.

    It has pathophysiology (understanding the WHY is so important)

    It has research courses, that make a nurse more able to read and interpret professional journals and/or research studies relevant to his/her field of practice. Last time I checked, we are doing evidence-based practice, after all.

    There is also more focus on the written and spoken word. For nurses to gain the respect we need, we must be able to effectively communicate.

    I have the utmost respect for ADN and diploma nurses - don't get me wrong. Just please don't dismiss a BSN curriculum as a bunch of extra "crap" either.

    Bottom line: Why would anyone want to go through what we go through as nurses if he or she did not care about their patients? Seems like self-torture to me. The caring is what keeps me going much of the time. It is my psychological fuel.

    Well said. But please note that beside the technical, ADNs are taught pathopys as well. We know how to hang an IV with potassium in the IV and we know why we're doing it.

    I'm in an RN to BSN program and I can see some valuable courses coming my way including pharmacology, assessment and a separate course in only pathophys.

    I kind of see both, as a BSN student who is an ADN nurse, I cringe when I hear insults about the extra education not being valuable or practical. I think these more detailed courses are really going to help me. And yes, I think when I get the BSN, I'm going to be a better nurse than I was before. But I'm also a better nurse than I was five years ago, and definately a better nurse than I was 15 years ago.

    I also cringe when I hear that ADN is a technical education.

    O.K. enough babble. I'm procrastinating doing a paper. :chuckle
  6. by   rach_nc_03
    Quote from grannynurseFNP
    The content of these posts clearly demonstrates the lack of understanding and knowledge as to what makes up a professional education and what makes up a technical one. And to lay the blame on the ANA demonstrates a lack of understanding as to what and who is a professional. To be perfectly honest, an AD and diploma graduate are clearly technical nurses. And I feel free to say this, having completed 28 months of a diploma program and having graduated from an associate degree program. And, had I had the funds, I would have gone for my BSN rather then the associate. Blame who you wish. You will still never be viewed as a professional by other health care professionals, who education standards are higher then ours. And who have only one entry level.

    Grannynurse
    1. I'm getting *really* tired of people assuming that those of us with degrees other than a BSN are somehow less educated *or* intelligent. Regardless of what you, or anyone else here, may think, an understanding of theory, professionalism, principles of wholistic care, and any other 'non-technical' aspects of nursing *can* be acquired in other ways. We need only remember the educational background of Albert Einstein to understand that. When I worked in the tech industry, one of our best marketing strategists had a high school education, and had started in the industry as a telephone line technician. He could run circles around any newly-minted MBA that walked in the door.

    2. I am a new ADN grad (go ahead, discredit me now) working in an ICU. One of the women in my orientation group is starting an MSN program; another has an MSN and is doing post-master's work. Guess what? We're doing EXACTLY the same thing at the bedside as new staff nurses. There are no differences in scope of practice, level of responsibility- nothing at all. Obviously, the person with an MSN has other opportunities in terms of licensure as an advanced practice nurse, but in this job, her role is the same.

    3. Grannynurse, you've mentioned in other posts that you started your nursing education in the 1960's. Is that when you received your ADN? If so, I'm sure it's crossed your mind that *all* nursing education has changed the past 40 years. Perhaps ADN and diploma programs trained technical nurses in that era...but, from what I've been told, nurses were also expected to do things that I personally find sexist and repugnant, like offer their chair to any MD who walked in the room, and make him coffee.
  7. by   ZASHAGALKA
    To the poster that asked me to please not diminish BSN: I'll agree that BSN can make you a more 'well-rounded' nurse, but not necessarily a 'better' nurse. There is a difference there. And in regards to the pathophys - you don't think that's taught in ADN programs? BSN is a 4 yr degree. ADN is a 3.5 yr degree (it takes 1.5 yrs of prereqs just to apply). It's not like there is room in that gap for a ton of difference. A research class, A public speaking class, A 'leadership' class, a 'nursing theory crap' class, and a stat class is the only difference: 1 semester.

    Look, I COULD be sold on the concept of BSN-entry. I've posted several times on this. I wear an aggie ring in an aggie community and I can see how that sometimes positively affects my relationship w/ doctors, et.al.: how it grants me an extra measure of respect.

    Am I for that for nursing. Absolutely. But it's a matter of perceptions, not realities.

    But if you want to argue this point, argue that it's all about perceptions. Starting your argument that I'm a 'technical' nurse because I don't have your 'credentials' sounds very insulting to the majority of RNs that work side by side w/ you doing the exact same job and the exact same measure of pay and respect.

    I said in an earlier post that 'technical' is the 'N' word in nursing. What is the 'N' word: it's a term meant as a perjorative that implies certain perceptions that have no basis in reality.

    'technical' is the same thing. The people that use the word 'technical' to distinguish from 'professional' do so to imply that I'm not 'professional'. That's insulting and wrong. And if you have that view of your peers, then you are what is wrong with nursing - because you are the reason we can't unify for our greater good.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Jul 16, '05
  8. by   traumahawk99
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    Nursing Diagnosis, Care plans, BSN only debates - all brought to you courtesy of ivory towered academics that long ago lost any true concept of what nursing is about.

    Can you be a nurse without Jean Watson and her ivory towered ilk? The question is: Can you be a nurse in spite of her?

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    right on. it's the emperor's clothes. there is no other profession where the folks in academia have so utterly detached themselves from reality and made their own little world. as i've said before, the holy grails of nic, noc and nanda are better named useless, more useless, and even more useless. these people are more in it for respect and ego than they are concerned that we will have enough workers to meet the practical needs of our society. they're pushing the bsn requirement in order that they can run the profession as an exclusive club, with themselves installed at the top.

    the reason asn should be entry level for the job is because it's the training level that's sufficient to do it. requiring this other load of bull to enter the profession isn't instructing, it's obstructing.

    you can get a bsn and maybe have started one iv and done one foley catheter. the only word i can have to describe a training program with its priorities so misplaced is pathetic.
  9. by   Tweety
    Quote from traumahawk99
    you can get a bsn and maybe have started one iv and done one foley catheter. the only word i can have to describe a training program with its priorities so misplaced is pathetic.

    I graduated from my ADN program having started only one IV and one foley. I primarily learned these technical skills on the job.

    I precept BSN students and they are learning plenty of technical skills and that's the priority the first semester especially. I disagree that having other priorities beyond technical tasks is misplaced and pathetic. ADN programs go way beyond the technical why is it pathetic that the BSN programs do so too? I'm not following you here.
  10. by   grannynurse FNP student
    Quote from rach_nc_03
    1. I'm getting *really* tired of people assuming that those of us with degrees other than a BSN are somehow less educated *or* intelligent. Regardless of what you, or anyone else here, may think, an understanding of theory, professionalism, principles of wholistic care, and any other 'non-technical' aspects of nursing *can* be acquired in other ways. We need only remember the educational background of Albert Einstein to understand that. When I worked in the tech industry, one of our best marketing strategists had a high school education, and had started in the industry as a telephone line technician. He could run circles around any newly-minted MBA that walked in the door.

    2. I am a new ADN grad (go ahead, discredit me now) working in an ICU. One of the women in my orientation group is starting an MSN program; another has an MSN and is doing post-master's work. Guess what? We're doing EXACTLY the same thing at the bedside as new staff nurses. There are no differences in scope of practice, level of responsibility- nothing at all. Obviously, the person with an MSN has other opportunities in terms of licensure as an advanced practice nurse, but in this job, her role is the same.

    3. Grannynurse, you've mentioned in other posts that you started your nursing education in the 1960's. Is that when you received your ADN? If so, I'm sure it's crossed your mind that *all* nursing education has changed the past 40 years. Perhaps ADN and diploma programs trained technical nurses in that era...but, from what I've been told, nurses were also expected to do things that I personally find sexist and repugnant, like offer their chair to any MD who walked in the room, and make him coffee.
    I have never assume that anyone who has an associate or diploma is possibly any less intelligent or any less capable then anyone else. I do find it amusing that one has to defend one's self by casting insults towards anothers degree of education. It reminds me of the fear of those less educated, who, in their fear, build themselves up by insisting they know everything, when in fact their experience, experience that diminishs as they proceed in their career, lessens, does not increase.

    You co-worker is one many, in an industry of many. And is success, despite his lack of formal education, is to be admired and celebrated. He is, however, an oddity, not the usual.

    Your comment being a new graduate shows you clearly lack confidence in your own abilities, assuming that I or anyone would either compare or even put you down. I do not know your capablities but you do not know mine either, so why do you sit in judgement of me? Studies have shown that diploma, two and four year new graduates generally start on with the same degree of skills. And that after several years, BSN graduates clearly pull ahead of the other two types of degrees. Of course, these studies have been done by those in the ivory towers and are clearly suspect by those with lesser degrees. So be it but the evidence is there, like it or not, accept it or not.

    I began my nursing education, in 1964. I have continued my education thru the years, obtaing an additional degree and many courses, in nursing, rehab, addiction and other fields. I have not allowed my education to stagnant nor my base of knowledge or practice. Nor have many of the other nurses I have had the privilige to attend classes with or practice with. And I do in fact, clearly remember the marching orders of the day. And I also remember the advance degree nurses on the forefront of change, change where nurses and their knowledge and practice have been considered, for what they were worth. The comment about the oldness of my education, please remember it, in 35 years, when another youjngester makes the comment about yours.

    Grannynurse
  11. by   LeahJet
    Quote from grannynurseFNP
    The content of these posts clearly demonstrates the lack of understanding and knowledge as to what makes up a professional education and what makes up a technical one. And to lay the blame on the ANA demonstrates a lack of understanding as to what and who is a professional. To be perfectly honest, an AD and diploma graduate are clearly technical nurses. And I feel free to say this, having completed 28 months of a diploma program and having graduated from an associate degree program. And, had I had the funds, I would have gone for my BSN rather then the associate. Blame who you wish. You will still never be viewed as a professional by other health care professionals, who education standards are higher then ours. And who have only one entry level.

    Grannynurse
    You know, reading a few of your posts.... I find your replies extremely condescending and a little more than rude. I am sure that you are lovely in person and you NEVER convey that type of attitude toward all those "technical" people you work with. I am sure you treat them with the utmost respect.
    I do not intend on getting caught up in this debate. If you frustrate SBE (a fellow "tech" that happens to be the one of the most knowledgeable and insightful people on this board) to the point of throwing in the towel, I know I couldn't stand up to it.

    "Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength" ~Eric Hoffer
  12. by   grannynurse FNP student
    Quote from LeahJet
    You know, reading a few of your posts.... I find your replies extremely condescending and a little more than rude. I am sure that you are lovely in person and you NEVER convey that type of attitude toward all those "technical" people you work with. I am sure you treat them with the utmost respect.
    I do not intend on getting caught up in this debate. If you frustrate SBE (a fellow "tech" that happens to be the one of the most knowledgeable and insightful people on this board) to the point of throwing in the towel, I know I couldn't stand up to it.

    "Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength" ~Eric Hoffer
    I'm sorry but do you have the same atittude towards the physicians you work with? Do you think anything less of one, who goes to a residence in rural county general vs one who goes to a leading medical center. You are correct, you don't have the slighest idea how I interact with my peers, you are just assuming, based on your own attitudes. Attidues colored by your own preceptions. Why do you find it so necessary to put down someone who advocates a higher degree of education? And you have put me down. And with this comment, I will end this so called discussion.

    Grannynurse
  13. by   Tweety
    Quote from grannynurseFNP
    Why do you find it so necessary to put down someone who advocates a higher degree of education? And you have put me down. And with this comment, I will end this so called discussion.

    Grannynurse

    I think you were as respectful as you could be. This is kind of what I meant when I said it's difficult to convey the advantages of the BSN over the ADN without stepping on toes. I don't think there's any way around it. I didn't think you were rude about.

    I think I'm outta here too.

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