BSN vs. ADN

Nurses General Nursing

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I am a BSN and I feel that I should be paid more for my extra education. What do you think?

What an interesting article Sooner, I would have to agree that if there was one entry path for RN more potential nurses will apply due to the min. confusion, however in oz we are starting to experience a shortage also. Our undergrad nos aren't decreasing so much but maybe our nurses are heading of to the USA & UK for the big bucks that are dangling in front of them to overcome their shortages?

Having one entry path for RN & everyone with BSN with have to have an impact on decreasing horizontal violence (some will still eat their young though)

Interesting that nurse with degree was preferred r/t critical thinking & leadership qualities. Maybe the administrators in that hospital have a preference for the single entry path hence favour all RNs to be BSN qualified.

I must say that after learning sbout your system in states I was astounded at the entry paths available to RNs. I never knew there was such confusion & am pleased that I have been able to gain some insight into the problems associated with this system.

Thanks everyone.

Hi again,

Sooner, thanks for your very informative and encouraging information from a piece in JAMA. This information additionally supports why it is important to establish BSN as entry level into nursing practice. As a result, I will repeat that I am strongly in favor of 3 year clinicals in the BSN programs. I am also in favor of certification as a aide or tech prior to graduation from nursing school. Patient care and mentalities are now too complex to deal with for someone who does not have any health and medical exposure. I also don't know of any other health or medical related discipline facing the dilemma of varied educational backgrounds for the same title.

Emmidee, I can appreciate where you're coming from with your posts but realize that low priority and/or value placed on advanced educational status no doubt contributes to the lag in pay in the South behind other regions of the country with the exception of a few pockets. Possibly nurses can even garner more respect from physicians by formally closing the educational gap. When you think about it, there is such a wide distance between 2 years and 12 years even taking when you take years of experience into consideration. I believe someone mentioned in an earlier post about nursing still being looked upon as an adjunct job (my words)because predominately women get in it to supplement a breadwinner's income. I feel that one of the major ways to overcome this stigma is to establish a higher educational standard. As I wrote before, I respect any nurse that can competently and sanely perform bedside care, but the reality is that the nursing profession seems to be spinning its wheels.

Hi all, just out of curiosity, do the different programs have different clinical components? I get the impression that the BSN degree course does not have clinical involved & that this must be undertaken externally? Also, there is talk of prereqqisits for the courses, do you have to do some assistant nursing or 'tech' clinical work first?

It sounds VERY confusing? No wonder the young school students don't jump to enrol in nursing, it must be a nightmare trying to determine which path to take & then if it is going to be worth doing a degree or not. Appreciate the feedback. Lee

I am an RN that first acquired my associate degree and went on to get my BSN. I believe that my higher education does not "entitle" me to increased wages for my position as a hospital staff nurse. I sat for the same licensing examination that my associate degree coworkers did, and we all have the same R.N. after our name. I do not believe, goldilocks, that my fellow coworkers should recognize me for my hard work, we ALL work hard providing patient care. A BSN does NOT make me a better person or even a better nurse. A BSN, however, does give a nurse more career options. Management, teaching, and military nursing (VA hospitals) require a bachelor's degree. For advanced practice nursing a bachelor's degree is just the first step to acquiring your necessary master's degree. A nurse should pursue a BSN not for higher wages for the same job, but increased opportunities in nursing, and yes, those increased job opportunities will bring higher wages.

Let's see, I was a CNA, QMA, AAS/RN, BS. The program I went to, did not allow you to go straight into a BSN. It was a 2+2 program; you earned your Associate Applied Science in Nursing, then took the board and reapply to BSN after a year of being RN, if one so chose. Of course, they encouraged you to come back for BSN. I wanted a BS, but not a BSN, so went that direction. Now, they have the program set up to choose either/or AAS or BSN, with no waiting period. I also have my psych certification, which I paid for myself, as well as paying for all but two courses of my BS. I have never been paid a cent more for any of this, but I believe it does open doors into management, etc., if one chooses that path, which I have not. In the fantasy world, I think it would be great to be compensated for the extra time/money spent, but in the real world, that's oft not the case; at least in nursing. As far as more initials making one a better nurse, I don't think so, but I think furthering your education can bring personal fulfillment, and possible opportunity one might not have without it. I have never signed anything but RN after my name, but certainly don't fault those who do. In fact, I say toot your horn, you earned it!

Originally posted by LRM:

Hi all, just out of curiosity, do the different programs have different clinical components? I get the impression that the BSN degree course does not have clinical involved & that this must be undertaken externally? Also, there is talk of prereqqisits for the courses, do you have to do some assistant nursing or 'tech' clinical work first?

It sounds VERY confusing? No wonder the young school students don't jump to enrol in nursing, it must be a nightmare trying to determine which path to take & then if it is going to be worth doing a degree or not. Appreciate the feedback. Lee

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Hi LRM,

My two cents and more is that in the States, it is indeed very confusing, because nursing is one of those professions that never really got grounded as a true profession. It is also a greatly exploited occupation in this country as are other female-dominated professions.

I can appreciate the argument same pay for same work. However, it's unfortunate we can't seem to come to an agreement that we should all come out of school from the same starting line. We continue to side-track ourselves with who has the superior nursing program and graduates. I feel that starting from the same starting line is especially important in nursing where the same wheels have been spinning for decades, and the frustration, responsibility and accountability levels are increasing. I am very proud to be a diploma-based nurse. When I went back for my BSN, I was not only considering the potential work opportunities I would have, but the expansion of my knowledge base in nursing. I was not considering that I would be better than anyone, as I still feel no shame in gently cleaning a behind, placing someone on a bedpan, or emptying trash. In fact, this is the time, I learn more about my clients. Maybe that is the diploma backround in me. Nursing leadership and management principles do not only apply to administrative office activities. It also has to do with the wholism of one's nursing practice. Again, patient care and mentalities are too complex to continue nursing in its historical and current form. Again, we should consider the fact that if we can close some of the educational gap between nurses and physicians, that our pay may follow. All RNs should be grandfathered over a certain period of time into the BSN level with an increase in pay. To me, it just seems like we may be the only "developed" country and "super power" that has not come to this conclusion. Can anyone verify? Yes, I know, the nursing shortage will preempt establishing BSN as entry level for now. But now is the time for strategizing for the future.

[This message has been edited by Mijourney (edited July 15, 2000).]

I think that the only person who would think this, is a person who does not have a BSN degree. By the way it is "responsibility" not responsabilitie. I knew this before the BSN degree.

Originally posted by Babette777:

Well, to be blunt.... no!

I think salary should reflect the level of responsabilitie... not the level of education.

If you're working on the same ward as an R.N. without a BSN and are taking on the same amount of responsabilitie and you both have the same amount of experience you should get the same pay check at the end of the day.

It's as simple as that.

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ADJ

Well I would like to enlighten some of the BSN's. I am an ADN I have been an RN for 4+ years. I was a Home health aide and a Nurse Tech for 6 years prior. I have worked my back end off to get where I am right now. As of last Friday (with only my ADN) I was promoted to Patient Care Supervisor at a Hospice Agency. I work in 2 cities at the present moment. I was put in the position and I proved myself in 6 short months. I received a $6,000 a year raise. So any ADN's out there that think you can only get a supervisors position in nursing homes or hospitals as charge nurse think twice. This is the second largest Hospice in the nation.

So good luck to all. You can do it if you can do the work and prove yourself.

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BLS RN PCM

Tulsa, OK

Thanks guys, now I'm even more confused. Just for the record, in oz, people can enter the Bach. Nursing course (3 years f/t, 6 years p/t) directly from school (after satisfactory uni entry grade in year 12) or apply as 'alternate entry' application (used to be 'mature entry'>21).

All courses cover a curriculum approved by the individual state's nursing council. On completion of course you put in application to that state's nursing council & become RN (no further entrance exam or 'boards')

My uni course has 5 clinical prac components (total 20 weeks over 3 years) including mandatory MH & optional paeds, rural, theatre, ICU. Most pracs are completed in acute med/surg.

Pracs are worked in around lectures. For example this semester (my last) starting tomorrow (yipee!!) I have 4 weeks lectures, 6 weeks prac, 1 week semester break then 3 weeks lectures. Assignments to be completed throughout semester & exams at end after week 13.

Can you see why I am so confused with your system? This system is state wide in oz, although each state sets its own curriculum an RN can apply for registration in another state & just has to supply the details, no further exams, etc are needed.

No prerequs needed either (other than min. uni entrance grade if straight from high school). To get accepted for 'alternate entry' the applicant sits a tertiary entrance exam but this is more an apptitude test not specific to nursing.

Many nursing students do work as nurse assitants or are ENs but this is not mandatory. It may look better on resume but there is almost 100% employment rate down here for grads. Some go onto further study (honours) or choose not to work for some reason but I don't know any grad in Qld who can't get employment.

Nursing is regarded as a profession & highly competative for entrance especially for high school students. Lets hope it stays that way down here.

Thanks for your info everyone.

i think that the whole issues is a sign of the state of nursing in this country. i am a associate degree rn with 16 yrs experience in a 15 bed icu with a level 2 regional shock trauma. i work with associate, diploma and bachelor prepared nurses. i cant see any difference in performance? im not opposed to more education! but from what i can see "advanced degree's" in nursing doesnt make you a better nurse. i get more upset when hospitals dont financially recognize certification in your "specialty" area of nursing. i find that the more nursing education a person has the further away from the bedside they get! if a person is going to get a "higher" degree i believe it should be in anything except nursing! in the long run you are more of a resource to your employer and your patients as well as making you personally more marketable!

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Hi,

BarbRN, congratulations on your achievements. From your post, you seem deserving of the promotion and the raise. It is quite common to promote ADN or diploma graduates to supervisory levels in direct patient care in many health care settings.

ADN and diploma nurses are appropriate for line leadership positions. Employers historically have looked to BSNers to fill not only line positions but staff positions like nurse clinician, educator, and the like. Getting a BSN should serve to enhance your options for nursing practice.

I agree, ICUnightrn, that a certification should be financially compensated. I indicated this in my first or second post on this topic as I have certifications. I am still not convinced that a BSN should not be compensated. Both certification and a BSN are recognition for additional knowledge and/or skills in a particular area. A BS whether in nursing or another field strengthens and expands existing knowledge for ADN and diploma nurses. The fact that one would pursue a BS in another area for different and/or improved job opportunities supports the notion that additional pay for the BSN is warranted. Knowledge from a good BSN program gives the practicing nurse a global foundation to work from that is limited in ADN programs and does not exist in typical diploma programs. ADN programs produce excellent practitioners, but the programs are considered by some to be an abbreviated version of a BSN program evidenced by the availability of 2+2 programs and university bridge programs. When committed, dedicated nurses from BSN programs are able to apply theory to practice after the first year or two, they tend to make excellent depth and global practictioners in all areas of nursing and health care.

I am a diploma nurse, but I do think that pay should be based in part on education. If I had taken the BSN program I'd be pissed at not getting any more money out of it!

LRM, it is confusing to me too how one goes about getting a degree in nursing here. They have certain prerequisite courses that they have to take and pass with high marks in order to be considered for a slot in the nursing program. Once in the nursing program though, they do attend clinicals a few times a week, just like you and I did. Where I think that the two courses differ is the amount of "extras" that one needs to take in order to get the different degrees. I believe that BSN nurses need to take more courses, not really related to nursing per say, but more of a liberal education. As a diploma nurse, all I needed to get into the nurisng program was a highschool diploma showing that I had apptitude in the sciences, and the rest of it we obtained in nursing school. ALL of the courses taken in college could be related to nursing, like psych, and communications, and sociology. But to qualify for a degree here, you can find yourself taking things like Art History, bowling, and weight lifting. And as you can see, it doesn't really matter out on the floor. I think it should, but it doesn't. Go figure!

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