BSN vs. ADN - page 6

I am a BSN and I feel that I should be paid more for my extra education. What do you think?... Read More

  1. by   klm92151
    Okay, here is MY 2 cents. BSN threats have been around since the late 60s when I firts went to a diploma school. I dropped out after a year and a half and went back to school after 25 years working my way up from CNA to my BSN this spring. It took me 12 years and alot of sweat and tears. No, BSN doesn't make you a SUPER nurse, but what I feel it gives you is a professional 'edge' and a sense of committment to the profession. Profession is what this debate is all about. We ARE a profession. To be recognized in the sight of other professions, particularly those in the medical field, I believe BSN should be the entrance degree to advance nursing where it should have been years ago. I also feel I should be compensated for it. I practice in Kansas in a rural area. They do not compensate.
  2. by   askater
    Hi!! I've worked 2 hospitals, both got rid of L.P.N position. I was amazed. At that time, it was the start of nurse shortage.

    My concern is from talking to other A.D.N nurses. The 2 year program is intense...they have a lot of information to learn in a short period. It seems like the medical fields becoming more and more intense. There's more and more to learn. As the medical fields widens it's knowledge...Do you feel the A.D.N program can continue to widen it's program....to cover all aspects (of nursing/medical field)?

    It's just something I've been thinking, after talking with other nurses.
  3. by   goldilocksrn
    I remember the many sleepless nights I had during nursing school doing care plans, doing research projects and article critiques. It was a personal and professional struggle to get to where I am today. Just like the ADN programs, BSN programs are just as intense. And on top of the clinical work, we also have educational and research work as well. This is why BSNs should be paid more. You can train monkeys to pass meds, start IV's and hang piggy backs. Those are just tasks. Tasks are what we are expected to do and should be paid the same for. I'm talking about recognition of my efforts to achieve my bachelors degree. I think anyone who returns to school should be compensated for it.
  4. by   JillR
    Goldilocks,
    I am not sure what you think the Associate Degree Nursing programs entail. It sounds to me like you are comparing ADN students to monkey that are taught only tasks.

    In the ADN program I attended we also wrote care plans and research papers. We also worked on teaching projects that enatailed teaching in the community. In addition to doing med/surg clinicals we also did clinicals in the areas of home health, geriatrics, and OB. We also did case studies in which we were able to practice our critical thinking in regards to real patients, in real life situations.

    The program I was in focused very intensly on critical thinking and seeing the big picture when it comes to the patients care.

    Just to clarify the scope of education surrounding the ADN program in my area.
  5. by   justanurse
    ?monkeys pass meds, start IVs, hang piggy backs?

    Ooohhhhh, that was low. Uncalled for. Not appropriate.

    So that's what they teach BSNs about ADNs?
    We are able to do no more than "simple" tasks? Sorry, but if that's what you were told, then you are wrong! I can do anything you can do, and yes my experience counts for a hell of a lot more than your BSN. I work with a whole lot of great nurses, who don't care what my degree is, nor do I care what theirs is. They care about how I treat them and our patients, which is more important than a degree, as does my employer. I'd rather work alongside my kind of nurses, than ones who think I'm no more than a "trained monkey". Goldilocks, you go ahead and find out where you can make more money for your BSN. Good for you, but if that's the attitude taught in 4 year schools, then I really feel sorry for you. If you have no more respect than that for your co-workers, then what kind of respect did they teach you to have for your patients? Your arguments just sank too low. You really should apologize for that one.

    Remember, we all passed the same test to get our RN license. The BSN didn't have a harder test than the ADN.
  6. by   LRM
    wow!! horizontal violence at its best!
    excuse my ignorance but how have you come about having ADN & BSN nures both qualified as RNs? (by the way what does ADN stand for & how many years to complete course?)Do you have 2 different courses in the US that allows both to register as RNs? This sounds confusing and surely only creates tension.

    In oz an RN is an RN, yes we have "hospital trained" RNs (but the last went thru at least 10 yrs ago) & uni RNs (with Bach in Nursing) the only compensation is when BN RNs enter work force they start on 2nd year pay scale then all are the same. Alot of hospital trained RNs are completing their degrees (doing 8 units of Bach Ng as opposed to 24 units)but both are accepted as equal.

    Experience does count however there is still some tension , hopital trained RNs sometimes feel threatened by new uni RN (all that extra info we have been fed with little clinical experience) & some uni trained RNs think they are superior because they have a degree but on the whole this is a minority.

    Is this a problem in all US states or only some & do you have a national nursing council that sets criteria for registration? In oz we have individual state nursing councils but the criteria is recognised and fairly uniform throughout oz, so nurses don't have to qualify for each state to work nationally. Is this the same in the USA.

    Yes you can train monkeys to do task but can they rationale why they do it & adapt if tasks don't go as planned? Surely one wouldn't be allowed to work as an RN if they couldn't meet this criteria no matter what their qualification.
  7. by   justanurse
    ADN = Associate Degree Nurse - takes 2 years to complete program - generally given at a community based college that is affiliated with a larger state university. The ADN program stresses nursing.

    BSN = Baccelareate (?sp) of Science in Nursing - generally takes 4 years and is offered at university level. The BSN program stresses nursing, along with business/management courses.

    Diploma - are trained by a hospital based program - generally takes 2 or 3 years. Very thorough with LOTS of clinical experience.

    Yes, we do take the same test for registered nursing.

    Degree is generally not a point of contention between most nurses. Unless someone makes a snide remark, then all h--- usually breaks out. Never had a problem at work, as I said, we all care about how we treat each other and the patients, not the degree behind the license. It's after I came on here that it seemed to be such a touchy subject. Hmmmmm, maybe it's that MONKEY remark, things like that kind of get under your skin, you know. We are all human. Monkeys can probably be taught to flip burgers, you want one serving you at McD's? You want one sticking you for your IV the next time you have to be admitted? You want your next nurse to know you feel that way? I don't think monkeys can be taught to examine a patient, to be constantly aware: that a patient doesn't look alright even when he says he feels alright. I don't think they can double check your insulin or heparin with you. Nursing is more than just task work - that's why hospitals are going to using more untrained workers, they believe that nursing is task work. And, that anyone can do those tasks, and that the Doctor is the one who notices if something isn't right with the patient, that nurses don't do anything important, anyway other than give meds and do dressing changes, and make a few little marks on a chart - monkeys can do that right? NOT!! Nursing is a multi-faceted profession, and all of our patients deserve better than what they have been getting for a long time.

    We are licensed by states, although it is a national test. You still have to apply to another state if you choose to move to another area. As long as your license is not limited, there is generally not a problem getting one in another state, just pay more money. Some states require that you get continuing education to relicense, some don't.

    As I have said before, I have NO problem if someone wants to have a BSN. Personal choice. I am happy with the route I chose. I don't want a management position, I don't want to have any more responsibility than I have as a staff nurse. If you want that and feel that it should require a BSN to perform those positions, fine. In the majority of places though, it's not necessary.

    Goldilocks, if you didn't mean it that way, then I'm sorry that I've slammed you on here. It's just that remarks like that are hurtful. You know, it also means that you're not needed either, that your job would be to make sure the monkey did his job right, and chart it for him. That monkey wouldn't care anything about you or your patients, just want to get the work done. We are human, and would like to be treated like real people, by mangagement and each other. I really do have respect for someone who wants to advance their career - go for it. I like to do patient care and don't want someone telling me I can't do that as well as them just because I have an ADN license. I know I can do it as well as anyone else, because I love my patients. It's like telling one mother she can't care for her kids as well as that mother because she doesn't have the right degree for it. At least that's how I see it.

    And, for money, if two people do the same job and have the same years of experience, they should be paid the same. I also have no problems with clinical ladders, in which those who have furthered their education are paid more, it also means that I can be paid more for certifications that I obtain. No problem with that.
  8. by   Palpitations
    I have to agree that the "trained monkeys" remark was kinda cold. (sheesh) ...but on the otherhand, soon the powers that be will only be requiring a certificate to pass meds. They're going to take the degree and licensing part out of it. Take for instance this new law passed in Kansas:

    "the administration of medications to residents of adult care homes or to patients in hospital-based longterm care units, including state operated institutions for the mentally retarded, by an unlicensed person who has been certified as having satisfactorily completed a training program in medication administration approved by the secretary of health and environment education adopted by the secretary, or by an unlicensed person while engaged in and as a part of such training program in medication administration;"

    You guys are right the degree doesn't matter, the skills do. I believe that this means that CMAs will be able to pass medications in the hospitals' skilled nursing units. What's next?

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by justanurse:
    [B]ADN = Associate Degree Nurse - takes 2 years to complete program - generally given at a community based college that is affiliated with a larger state university. The ADN program stresses nursing.

    BSN = Baccelareate (?sp) of Science in Nursing - generally takes 4 years and is offered at university level. The BSN program stresses nursing, along with business/management courses.

    Diploma - are trained by a hospital based program - generally takes 2 or 3 years. Very thorough with LOTS of clinical experience.

    Yes, we do take the same test for registered nursing.

    Degree is generally not a point of contention between most nurses. Unless someone makes a snide remark, then all h--- usually breaks out. Never had a problem at work, as I said, we all care about how we treat each other and the patients, not the degree behind the license. It's after I came on here that it seemed to be such a touchy subject. Hmmmmm, maybe it's that MONKEY remark, things like that kind of get under your skin, you know. We are all human.(snipped)
  9. by   LRM
    Thanks justanurse, looks like our processes (USA & Oz) are quite different at the end of the day but the bottom line is that all are licensed RNs and those with further qualifications (uni etc.)can advance their management skills if wanted & those who want to concentrate on pt care more can do just that (not that BSN can't do good pt care, don't get me wrong!)

    Don't know about pay scales but I guess if you are taking on same pt load/ responsibilities then they should be similar but it can be a very contentious argument & I don't know enough about how your pay scales work to argue either side.
    Happy nursing!

    Thought for the day "If you employ monkeys you only have to pay peanuts!"
  10. by   LRM
    Thanks justanurse, looks like our processes (USA & Oz) are quite different at the end of the day but the bottom line is that all are licensed RNs and those with further qualifications (uni etc.)can advance their management skills if wanted & those who want to concentrate on pt care more can do just that (not that BSN can't do good pt care, don't get me wrong!)

    Don't know about pay scales but I guess if you are taking on same pt load/ responsibilities then they should be similar but it can be a very contentious argument & I don't know enough about how your pay scales work to argue either side.
    Happy nursing!

    Thought for the day "If you employ monkeys you only have to pay peanuts!"
  11. by   maikranz
    At the risk of getting slammed:
    To clarify about Certified Medical Assistants: they don't work in acute care, read--hospital clinical unit. They are ambulatory care / healthcare provider office workers. The UAP you / we should be concerned about is the Nursing AssistantI or II, who may or may not be Certified, whose primary areas of employment include rest/nursing homes and hospitals. Makes me nervous what they are permitted to do in my state. As for passing meds, read your state BON ruling /Nurse Practice Act re: who may pass meds in rest home situations.
    Everyone is arguing /sniping over ADN/BSN--for heaven's sake quit it!!!! As long as we take the same exam, as long as the results are recorded the same way, it doesn't matter! I took a 5-part, 2-day, ~14 hour exam. Today, RN-candidates have to answer, how many? 75 questions? to pass. Does it make my license any more than yours? You're right--it DOESN'T and just as many ____ passed then as do now regardless of basic nursing education preparation. Are we going to be so caught up in the perpetual "my degree is better than your degree" blather that we won't see that we have been phased out of the healthcare picture altogether! It's just one more way to keep us fighting AGAINST each other and I, for one, have never been so frightened about the status of nursing practice as I am today.
    I think what Goldilocks was saying, is that anyone can be trained to hand out meds, hang an IV, but what takes it beyond a task is the EXPERT ability to recognize that "no, that particular medication is lethal when given with that other medication" or that it is not prudent to start the IV with a 23g Jelco, that blood may be needed, so use an 18g instead. Expertise comes with experience and continued education, HOWEVER YOU ACQUIRE IT, and that is what should be compensated. And no, a BSN doesn't confer that expertise automatically and, yes, if I graduated from a 4-5yr. institution it would be nice to have a tad bit degree-differential (when I was a new diploma grad, the ADN grads started out with more $/hr due to the degree). Goodness, how could y'all seriously think that she was calling ADN grads monkeys" --honestly! Talk about deliberately misunderstanding someone.
    For my final $0.02 (and then I promise I'll get off my soapbox), let me remind everyone that we nurses are more than 1,000,000 strong. Imagine the powerful voice we would have if we spoke together as one. That's MY dream.
    Remember the new nurses that you're working with--we were there not so long ago....

    [This message has been edited by maikranz (edited June 22, 2000).]
  12. by   goldilocksrn
    I didn't mention the "monkey" remark as a slam to ADNs. What I am saying is that if we don't start respecting education in our profession, pretty soon a certified "monkey" will be doing our job. I don't think the general public realizes just how much we do. We need to respect education and how it separates us from the monkeys. Much respect for all RNs.
  13. by   LRM
    Totally with you all, thats why we need to think about this 'Thought for the day "If you employ monkeys you only have to pay peanuts!"'

    Just as maikranz said, it is the unqualified/ unregistered/ uncontrolled / unassessed staff that COST LESS being employed to fill the gaps who will create unsafe nursing environments.

    Remember, the RN is usually responsible for allocating work to them and maintaining safety standards so on behalf of the pts lets advocate for acceptable numbers of qualified staff on each shift.

    PS: Similiar things are happening in oz too!

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