BSN vs. ADN

AHarri66, BSN, RN · Jun 11, 2000

Why is it in any other profession the person with a higher degree gets more money, but in Nursing...only those under a BSN feels it doesn't matter. I think that anyone who pursues a higher degree should be paid well for it. It's a matter of choices. I feel I should not be punished b/c someone did not choose to educate themselves higher. I am very proud that I am a BSN and am going back for more education. Those who complain so much about it should stop spending their time complaining and go back to school!!!!

It sounds to me like you are disgruntled. How are you being "punished?" Are you given more responsibility over other non-BSN RNs and not being compensated for it? Or are you paying off high tuition bills and student loans and feel you should be given more money because of the alphabet soup after your name? As far as other professions, I can't think of any other that has such a diverse method of obtaining licensure, so your logic is flawed. The only similarity that pops to mind is MDs versus DOs, and they are both licensed as physicians with the same practicing rights, and similar pay scales.

The only complaints I hear are from BSNs who think because they spent an extra year or two in school that they should receive more money. I have yet to hear an ADN demand more compensation than a Diploma RN...I think it is elitist to expect more money for the SAME WORK.

You're right, it is a choice to further your education--I am an ADN and proud of it as well! I worked hard for my degree, as I am sure you did. I plan to go for my BSN this fall, NOT because I expect more money, but because on a PERSONAL level, I want more. I intend to specialize at some point, and that is the route to take.

And, just to be a nudge, I'll throw this out for all of those who like to hold their BSN education up for all to worship: my community college ADN program has one of the highest NCLEX pass rates in the country--97% over the course of its history! Every SINGLE graduate from my class of 70 passed the NCLEX---100%...can any BSN program claim THAT?

Regards,

Angela

[This message has been edited by AHarri66 (edited June 12, 2000).]

ltm · Jun 11, 2000

hi palpitations. obviously there are advanced practice nurses that have a greater scope of practice than that of a person with only a RN license, but last i checked this discussion was about RNs with either a adn or bsn and compensation. i still know that they do the same job and that is why they should be paid the same. At my BSN college we have a nclex pass rate of 97% and everyone from my class successfully passed the nclex, which is the same for the adn college in the area. i don't think one is better than the other and someone must think that they are the same since a graduate of either program can sit for the same licensing exam.

[This message has been edited by ltm (edited June 11, 2000).]

Susan Andrews · Jun 11, 2000

Originally posted by goldilocksrn:
I am a BSN and I feel that I should be paid more for my extra education. What do you think?

Well where to start. NO I DO NOT THINK A DEGREE NURSE SHOULD NECESSARILY GET PAID MORE"WHY" First education is essential. I returned to university in my 40's and as a believer that an RN did not necessarily need a degree I have made a 360 degree turn. I now understand the value of a combined diploma and degree program and truly beleive a combination is necessary you need both the books and experience to be able to start to perform.

As far as money is concerned I think it is time to value the entire medical team and all specialties. It takes more than an education to make you the best at what you do. Common sense, performance and contribution need to be taken into account. It is time to be more objective in grading salaries and less subjective. It is as well time to appreciate not every nurse needs to be nor wants to be a critical care nurse " Oh yes I worked 20 out of my 28 yrs in trauma and critical care and there wasn't a day went by that I felt we were recognized for what we did nor paid fairly. I would as well like to say that I as well would not have changed places with the nurses working in medicine or geriatrics these are as well a difficult specialties which do not get enough recognition.Another area which needs to be recognized are the nurses working with terminally ill patients cancer and aids. I worked 5 years part time with aids patients and if you don't think these nurses need to continually study you are mistaken if they shouldnot be paid the same as the group So that is my gospel for what it is worth.

I hope to see nurses in general become more supportive of each other and work the betterment of the group as a hole.

Susan Andrews

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Genista, BSN, RN · Jun 12, 2000

I couldn't resist a reply! :-)

Angela- I agree w/ you on many levels. BSN RNs should not be paid more for doing the SAME job "just because" they have a BSN (the degree doesn't change the job description does it?) Good for you for going for advanced education! Your ADN program sounds wonderful. (My graduating class had a 100% pass rate on the NCLEX as well~ though, I'm not sure what the hx pass rate is). Yes,I'm a BSN RN, but I don't consider that this makes me inherently smarter or better.HA! I am smart enough to know that experience is the greatest teacher of all.There are nurses of ALL backgrounds who can teach me a thing or two (LPN, Diploma, ADN, you name it). I do have a BSN & I do not expect to be paid more for doing the same job as my Diploma or ADN peers. However, I AM appreciative of having the BSN because it has provided me a broad base of knowledge. The BSN opens up more career opportunities.With the BSN, I have more *Options*.Someday I may wish to work in a govt/Public Health position (I have a PHN Cert.), or maybe go back for the MS degree, or even (gasp) take my BSN and change careers entirely (hey, these thoughts cross your mind after a tough shift). I respect my peers for the Nurse that they are & the fruits of their labor, not just by the fancy schmancy titles after their name. Thanks for listening.

~kona

NurseRachet · Jun 12, 2000

Wow what a hot topic. I have done it all, LPN, ADN, BSN, and MSN. I know excellant nurses, and poor nurses at all levels. I have seen LPN's that I would rather take care of me than an BSN. Some places pay more for BSN over ADN, but they are few. One advantage of a higher degree are the opportunities, i.e, teaching, NP, clinical specialist, management, etc. It really depends on the individual and where they are in their life obtaining a degree. They use to say the BSN was going to be the entry level - and then grandfather clause all the RN's in - gee, what happened to that idea?

I believe in merit increases based on attendance and performance - but not based on degrees. At hospital, you must have an BSN to be in any management or instructional position. Good luck with this hot topic.

Palpitations · Jun 12, 2000

Not only was it about ADNs or BSNs it was about pay, skills, and education. Obviously, there are LPNs that have more skills than ADNs and BSNs; but, you didn't think that their (LPNs) scope of practice was as broad as yours, so that's why you said that they shouldn't be paid as much as you. Right? If you're going to use that argument about skill levels, you need to be consistent. You say that the degree doesn't matter as long as you're doing the same things. So, why the heck should we go to college? Remember, this is the plan that HMOs are trying to get across, patient care techs and such can do the RNs job. Using your argument, they would be right. The degree doesn't matter.

I just wanted to add this article for the sake of argument. I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing.

http://www.speakeasy.org/wfp/16/Nursing.html

Originally posted by ltm:
hi palpitations. obviously there are advanced practice nurses that have a greater scope of practice than that of a person with only a RN license, but last i checked this discussion was about RNs with either a adn or bsn and compensation. i still know that they do the same job and that is why they should be paid the same. At my BSN college we have a nclex pass rate of 97% and everyone from my class successfully passed the nclex, which is the same for the adn college in the area. i don't think one is better than the other and someone must think that they are the same since a graduate of either program can sit for the same licensing exam.

[This message has been edited by ltm (edited June 11, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by ltm (edited June 11, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Palpitations (edited June 12, 2000).]

JillR · Jun 12, 2000

Angela,

I always have to chuckle to myself when I read these posts. In WI the ADN's have a higher pass rate across the board than the BSN's do. Also in my last semester we were required to take a NLN pharmacology test, I scored higher than 90% of all BSN students that took the same test but only 88% of ADN's. Now I think that things like this are a good argument for the ADN nurses.

Regarding pay rates, I feel that as staff nurses, if the BSN has the same resposibilty than the ADN nurse, the pay should be the same for the same job. thanks.

AHarri66, BSN, RN · Jun 12, 2000

Originally posted by Palpitations:
Not only was it about ADNs or BSNs it was about pay, skills, and education. Obviously, there are LPNs that have more skills than ADNs and BSNs; but, you didn't think that their (LPNs) scope of practice was as broad as yours, so that's why you said that they shouldn't be paid as much as you. Right? If you're going to use that argument about skill levels, you need to be consistent. You say that the degree doesn't matter as long as you're doing the same things. So, why the heck should we go to college? Remember, this is the plan that HMOs are trying to get across, patient care techs and such can do the RNs job. Using your argument, they would be right. The degree doesn't matter.

I just wanted to add this article for the sake of argument. I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing.
http://www.speakeasy.org/wfp/16/Nursing.html

Palpitations:

Thanks for posting the article. It made for interesting reading. However, it didn't say that PCAs/CNAs can do RNs jobs...it said "Lower paid unlicensed 'assistive personnel' cannot handle IV's, dispense medicine, or make formal assessments. Their typical work consists of bathing patients, changing sheets and taking vital signs." This is what unlicensed personnel do in all facilities that I am aware of, as well as feeding, toileting, and transporting patients. I don't find that a threat to my job. As far as I am concerned, having PCAs/CNAs to do those tasks frees me up to handle the more complicated and skilled procedures involved in caring for my patients.

I am being consistent regarding scope of practice and skill level for practicing nurses! I'm not saying that LPNs aren't skilled or knowledgable, I'm saying there are procedures they legally are not allowed to do, and in most cases they are under the supervision of RNs. That is where the difference in pay lies. A degree/diploma does matter in the case of RNs, it allows them a broader scope of practice and a broader knowledge base. As of now, however, which degree doesn't matter because the licensing is the same, as are the responsibilities. A PCA/CNA has no formal education other than a four to six week training course, and definitely doesn't have the same scope of practice or knowledge base, thus they are paid far less.

We as nurses are in a unique position as far as our education and licensing are concerned--there are various routes to practice. If at some point the decision is made by the powers that be to differentiate among Diplomas, ADNs, and BSNs, then there will be a valid argument for difference in compensation. Until that time, equal work gets equal pay.

Regards,

Angela

[This message has been edited by AHarri66 (edited June 12, 2000).]

ltm · Jun 14, 2000

thanks for you post angela. i agree with it 100%. it was all that i have been saying since my first post. different scopes of practice get different pay, while people with the same scope of practice get the same pay. i truly don't have time to argue for the sake of arguing, because of course i feel that there are more important things in the world, like patient care and getting nurses united to make a difference where it counts.

ltm

Palpitations · Jun 14, 2000

You don't have time to argue, but you feel compelled to keep replying, so you do have time to argue. Yeah, I will agree with you that different scopes of practice do get different pay and that's my point (see above reply). You seem to feel that ADNs and BSNs are no different in their scopes of practice, but that is not true for all areas, which was, also, my point (see above reply). It is mostly true for bedside and floor nurses; they (ADNs and BSNs) will, probably, get the same pay for the same duties. It will be harder for an ADN to get jobs in military, community health, and management.

Nurses will not unite if they're not in agreement. So, you're going to have to come up with some better ideas for getting that to happen. They're not going to go for that "I care for my patients more than you do" stuff.

Originally posted by ltm:
thanks for you post angela. i agree with it 100%. it was all that i have been saying since my first post. different scopes of practice get different pay, while people with the same scope of practice get the same pay. i truly don't have time to argue for the sake of arguing, because of course i feel that there are more important things in the world, like patient care and getting nurses united to make a difference where it counts.

ltm

goldilocksrn · Jun 15, 2000

I didn't go into a BSN program because I wanted more money. I did it to expand my mind. I think the more open your mind, the better person you are. I think paying people with more formal education more is a way of saying that their efforts to learn are recognized. It is sad that fellows nurses aren't willing to recognize a fellow RN's hard work. The public is going to continue to view us as task doers as long as we continue to view ourselves as task doers. Here we are arguing over who does what tasks and its not fair that a BSN makes more; if it makes you that upset, go get your BSN too. It will motivate others to pursue further learning.

ltm · Jun 15, 2000

Amen GoldilocksRN. i see your point also. i got my bsn, so that i would be able to go get my master's in midwifery. i truly care about my patients holisticly and that is why i am an RN. so to each their own until there is one route to becoming an RN, if that ever happens.