BSN minimum requirement - page 8

It is my firm belief that the minimum requirement for nursing should be a BSN. We want to be accepted as a profession, yet we allow 2 year programs to dominate the field. Now I went to a 2 year... Read More

  1. by   shodobe
    After viewing a subject that just will not die a nice natural death I can only come to the one conclusion, most BSN nurses are upset they are not making more money for the education they paid for.Let's face it until hospitals recognize higher education and pay for it most nurses will not take the time to go back to school. Yes you can make more if you go into management but what about the ones who stay behind to take care of patients? If I knew I would make considerably more by getting my BSN and still could stay at the bedside I would get my BSN.The bottom line for most nurses is the almighty dollar.Why should anyone go back to school and accumulate a huge debt just to make as much as the ADN who would spend about a third.I can see the hairs of most nurses now standing up because of what I have said but I have talked to quite a number of nurses over a period of time and they have all said this.There are some hospitals that pay for degrees and certs but this usually amounts to 1%!Get hospitals to recognize this added effort by paying more and you will see an increase in nurses going back to school.There is nothing wrong with admitting that money is a motivator for staying in nursing because over the next few years I think you will see a significant increase in salaries for nurses. Mike

    BSN for the entry level for "Professional" nursing? Give me a BREAK!
  2. by   Charles S. Smith, RN, MS
    Originally posted by shodobe:
    After viewing a subject that just will not die a nice natural death I can only come to the one conclusion, most BSN nurses are upset they are not making more money for the education they paid for.Let's face it until hospitals recognize higher education and pay for it most nurses will not take the time to go back to school. Yes you can make more if you go into management but what about the ones who stay behind to take care of patients? If I knew I would make considerably more by getting my BSN and still could stay at the bedside I would get my BSN.The bottom line for most nurses is the almighty dollar.Why should anyone go back to school and accumulate a huge debt just to make as much as the ADN who would spend about a third.I can see the hairs of most nurses now standing up because of what I have said but I have talked to quite a number of nurses over a period of time and they have all said this.There are some hospitals that pay for degrees and certs but this usually amounts to 1%!Get hospitals to recognize this added effort by paying more and you will see an increase in nurses going back to school.There is nothing wrong with admitting that money is a motivator for staying in nursing because over the next few years I think you will see a significant increase in salaries for nurses. Mike

    BSN for the entry level for "Professional" nursing? Give me a BREAK!
    Mike..there is some truth to what you say. Hospitals don't generally recognize higher levels of education for clinical practice. Given the nature of what we do and the compression of nurses wages, nurses are looking for more pay incentives. But your statement about hospitals needing to recognize the extra effort of getting a BSN FIRST may be putting the cart before the horse. My perspective is that NURSES ought to value the extra effort FIRST and demonstrate a global attitude of what is acceptable and financially worthy. Nurses must set the precedent and then command the financial rewards they deserve. As I have said before, we must value education for what it does for our lives in the long run, not for a specific job outcome. When we begin valuing education for the right reasons, reshaping our roles based on the education, and creating our nursing futures together, then and only then will be reap the rewards of our efforts. We can not depend on anyone else to do this for us. We have a tremendous opportunity right now to completely alter the course of nursing...are we driving or are we riding???

    best regards
    chas
  3. by   mattbsn
    If we truly want to be considered a profession we do need to move to having a BSN as a basis for entry into nursing. However, I do agree that this will also impact the nursing shortage in the SHORT term. I realize that ADN prepared nurses usually have more clinical experience at graduation than BSN prepared nurses because they do not have to take additional courses to become more rounded. Many hospitals are starting internship programs and in the past we did have GN positions, maybe we should move back to that type of program for the 1st 6 months post graduation. If you don't believe that being viewed as a profession doesn't have its advantages look at what has happened in the short time since pharmacists have switched to requiring a PHARMD! We are still considered as a expenditure source and not as an asset. If you want to solve the nursing shortage we should bill nursing care independently for hours of service. If nursing is viewed as a Profit source and as a Profession the nursing shortage will resolve itself over time, even though the numbers of patients continue to increase. If there is a demand for more quality nursing programs they will come! We need more nurses who have been taught how to critically think!
  4. by   Lburns
    As our society becomes more technologically advanced and the stream of information and knowledge grows by leaps and bounds, it becomes impossible to learn even the basics in two years. The best nurses are good, not becasue of their degree, but because they are motivated and committed.

    I couldn't have said it any better. Absolutely a degree is not everything and doesn't make someone a good or bad nurse or even MD. However, the technology and advancements are such that a 2yr degree is not looked upon by others as enough education. Not only for management but for all aspects of nursing. Thanks for the positive feedback.
  5. by   Lburns
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by bigjay:
    [B] Whew. Pretty lively discussion we got going here.

    Here's the thing. As is quite obvious by the preceding discussion there is a split in the current nursing environment among the various levels of education. Therefore, it is fairly safe to say that by creating a standard level of education we would likely reduce (not totally eliminate) this diversive factor.

    The question is what SHOULD be the minimum education level? Generally in the working world the higher the level of education for a job the greater respect it is given. Generally the greater degree of complexity and responsibilty of a job the higher the level of education required. Following this logic you could surmise that the BScN would likely be the ideal choice.

    To clarify I am NOT saying that a BScN necessarily makes you a better nurse, initially prepares you better or worse, gives you super powers, etc. When I say higher degree of education I am talking academic perception only. Very few people would regard a college diploma as higher than a university degree.

    I agree with sheripa's point that anyone can consider themselves a professional regardless of their level of education. However that does not mean others will share that view. I would consider a McDonald's employee who was polite, efficient and well mannered to act in a professional manner but I would not call them a professional. A slovenly attired, poorly spoken engineer would likely still be called a professional on the basis of their job and educational background. As well, if you go around calling yourself a "glorified butt wiper" don't expect many people to consider that professional....

    On that note, I agree that total care is an important part of nursing in many areas. Definately not the main part though. Assessment, intervention and evaluation, the nursing process is the heart of nursing. Total care may be the task that takes up most of your day but that's all it is. A task. Many people could do that. Many people besides nurses do. However what they cannot do is provide the comprehensive assessment and evaluation throughout the total care process that nurses do. They cannot formulate interventions based on their assessment findings... well some probably could but not with the degree of certainty nurses should be able to.... When I am cleanig feces off a patient, that is not what I am focussed on. I am assessing the factors why they are incontinent (probably obvious but not always), their skin condition, problem solving if they is any way to avoid incontince, etc. That is how I differ from others who could do that job. I bring my pracitcal experience and education with me through all my daily tasks. Nurses can do many things and do them all well. That is both our strength and our curse in my opinion.

    You are exactly right and very eloquently put. I do believe once a minimum standard is set and those who are RNs grandfathered in in some way and the ADN programs work in conjunction with the BSN programs, we will see all RNS working together to make policy in regards to health care. Once we proceed past the bickering and extablish set criteria, we will move forward in the areas of politics and standards of health. As people can see from the variety of posts, comments range from the disarmingly rude to very complex and inovative ideas both for and against such an idea. Once this debate is done and we are all on the same page, banded together as a group we can affect health care on both a national and international level.

  6. by   Lburns
    Originally posted by Brownms46:

    First of all,...let me say that I didn't feel attacked. What is being talked about here isn't new by any stretch of the imagination. I do however find it difficult to listen to those who just came to the dance, trying to tell everyone else how the music should be played, when everyone was dancing to it just fine! Especially those who try to push this altruistic motivation bull, that they just want to elevate nursing to a more professional level, down my throat. Or who espouse the notion, that the nursing shortage won't always be with us! Yes it will, and it will become even more critical. The shortage that is here now, is worse than the shortages that existed over 20yrs ago.

    However...I do agree with you, that nurses are called, and no amount of education can be substitued for those who come into this field, and dedicate their lives to caring for others at the BEDSIDE, and are not looking to higher education as a way to help them escape.."when they tire of it"

    Brownie
    As a response to the nursing shortage, check with the hospitals, sit on the board, and take a look around. Those tasks we are doing, as Sheripa mentioned before, are tasks that are being taught to others. The RN has been shown to do assessments and intervene effectively, but the LVN and the CNA will be doing the tasks. AS nurses become fewer due to hard work and low pay, the number of laws passed in regards to ancillary care will continue. That is what I originally meant in regards to the nursing shortage, not necessarilly more RNs, but more jobs delegated out there. RNs have very little political power both in hospitals and in WAshington, yet we are a HUGE group of people. Only until we realize our worth and push forward for unity (both in education and pay) we will not be able to use that power. Other countries have seen the light and their nurses are more educated than our nurses putting their health care system ahead of ours. The US was number one in spending but only 33 in providing of care, that is terrible. With nurses getting a 4 year degree and coming to the table armed with knowledge, we will be able to demand better wages, better benefits, better care for the patient and we WILL be able to change things. However, we must move forward and know that things aren't as they were 20 years ago. Technology forces us to become better educated and the health care crisis forces us to get involved. Education is not for those who tire of the bedside, it is for those who wish to continue to provide care on every level.
  7. by   Lburns
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Lisa - RN:
    [B]With regards to the "Davis & Elkins" college, Weber State University in Ogden, Utah is very similar, i.e., they do not offer a straight 4-year BSN. Instead, applicants must finish a certain amount of pre-req's; show proof of completion of a Certified Nursing Assistant course and various community service; high SAT or ACT scores; application to ADN program during Winter semester - start the following Fall; two years later receive AS Degree (ADN); pass boards. A new application is generated for BSN admission with proof of Utah licensure. Then, and only then, can one start WSU's BSN program. Other BSN program requirements (besides licensure as a Registered Nurse) are high GPA, professional membership, letters of recommendation, etc.

    This very subject (BSN entry level) was discussed at length throughout my ADN program. The main complaint from most students: Why pay more tuition/sacrifice more time to obtain a BSN when [Utah] employers do not monetarily compensate for this additional degree? This was how the majority felt, evidenced by only a handful of my fellow classmates going on to WSU's BSN program.

    Maybe this is a subject for another post, but I am curious if other regions/states offer additional compensation for an RN with a BSN.

    My state doesn't offer compensation per se, but it opens the doors to jobs otherwise unavailable, be it at the bedside or in managment/ research. I think this would be a great idea to integrate the ADN/BSN programs as we move forward into the 21st century.

  8. by   Lburns
    Originally posted by shodobe:
    After viewing a subject that just will not die a nice natural death I can only come to the one conclusion, most BSN nurses are upset they are not making more money for the education they paid for.Let's face it until hospitals recognize higher education and pay for it most nurses will not take the time to go back to school. Yes you can make more if you go into management but what about the ones who stay behind to take care of patients? If I knew I would make considerably more by getting my BSN and still could stay at the bedside I would get my BSN.The bottom line for most nurses is the almighty dollar.Why should anyone go back to school and accumulate a huge debt just to make as much as the ADN who would spend about a third.I can see the hairs of most nurses now standing up because of what I have said but I have talked to quite a number of nurses over a period of time and they have all said this.There are some hospitals that pay for degrees and certs but this usually amounts to 1%!Get hospitals to recognize this added effort by paying more and you will see an increase in nurses going back to school.There is nothing wrong with admitting that money is a motivator for staying in nursing because over the next few years I think you will see a significant increase in salaries for nurses. Mike

    BSN for the entry level for "Professional" nursing? Give me a BREAK!
    Education is worth far more than any money it generates. I went for my BSN knowing it wasn't going to generate more income but I have learned so much more than I thought possible. I used to believe many of the same things other here did, that an ADN was all that was necessary. However, I have since changed my mind and continue forward with changing nursing for the positive. I don't believe anyone needs to feel left behind or belittled, but the time is now for us to take control of our profession. To start with we need to develop a minimum standard degree and that should be a 4yr degree. Once that is done it is time to move forward and change the roots of nursing from other professions making up our standards to us making up our standards. Lets get behind the nursing force and become a force that leads to positive change.
  9. by   sweetbaboo
    As a prospective nurse I'm getting the willies. All this fighting! It isn't bad enough that there are doctors out there that are willing to tell you what you lack (i.e. med degree) you all are throwing insults at each other. I have been in the medical field as an RT (wow talk about no respect) We are to follow orders and dare not deduce what a patient may or may not have wrong---we look at this stuff all day long, you can't tell me we wouldn't know something abnornal before a fresh med school graduate would--there is something to be said for experience. I naively thought getting MY bachelor's degree would open doors and create career paths that were NOT available to me with just my little ol' diploma---WRONGO REINDEER! In Radiology at least, experience is 90% of promotion consideration. Granted, faced with a non-degree vs a degreed person for Chief, one might pick the degree, but if it was also a factor of time put in--guess what, I sure hope they would pick the vetern and encourage further education---I know this was a long round about, but what I was trying to say, is that I'm getting a picture that if I have a BSN behind my RN--being a fresh degree--I am no better, nor any worse than a recently graduated RN from an acredited nursing program--I would be better rounded (oooh I could quote Shakespear to the patient, or I would be multiculturally aware of my patient) and apparently a lot less rich due to the hefty tag behind my RN---Am I understanding the crux of this discussion correctly?
  10. by   Brownms46
    Originally posted by sweetbaboo:
    As a prospective nurse I'm getting the willies. All this fighting! It isn't bad enough that there are doctors out there that are willing to tell you what you lack (i.e. med degree) you all are throwing insults at each other. I have been in the medical field as an RT (wow talk about no respect) We are to follow orders and dare not deduce what a patient may or may not have wrong---we look at this stuff all day long, you can't tell me we wouldn't know something abnornal before a fresh med school graduate would--there is something to be said for experience. I naively thought getting MY bachelor's degree would open doors and create career paths that were NOT available to me with just my little ol' diploma---WRONGO REINDEER! In Radiology at least, experience is 90% of promotion consideration. Granted, faced with a non-degree vs a degreed person for Chief, one might pick the degree, but if it was also a factor of time put in--guess what, I sure hope they would pick the vetern and encourage further education---I know this was a long round about, but what I was trying to say, is that I'm getting a picture that if I have a BSN behind my RN--being a fresh degree--I am no better, nor any worse than a recently graduated RN from an acredited nursing program--I would be better rounded (oooh I could quote Shakespear to the patient, or I would be multiculturally aware of my patient) and apparently a lot less rich due to the hefty tag behind my RN---Am I understanding the crux of this discussion correctly?
    And then some! Great post!


  11. by   shodobe
    I do agree with llburns that education is worth the time and trouble.What ever makes you feel good, go for it.It seems over the years I have been in nursing the only community of nurses who think a BSN should be the minimum are the nurses who have their BSNs already.In all aspects of society you will always find the ones who do not have it are the ones who will fight against it. In other words if the Gorilla was the prerequisite for being allowed into the primate world don't you think all the other chimps would be against it? Also if having a higher degree was the only way to be a computer programmer then there would be a lot of geeks out of work.I know for a fact if you know your stuff in computers then it doesn't matter if you have a degree from MIT. The same thing applies to nursing, I want to know who is going to make the decision on this matter. Is it going to be a few people on the local, state or federal level? No matter who does this no one is going to be happy except the upper echelon. I know this won't be decided in my professional career but everyone should just sit back and relax because all it does is draw a line between people and NO ONE WINS!I have been at this for 24 years and feel I am no better than the next nurse, just maybe a little more experienced. This I can pass on and I hope they will become just a little bit better for it. Mike
  12. by   page
    Originally posted by emtrn2k1:
    I have worked in healthcare for 4 years while attending a AD program. Let me say--I don't know how it is where you are, but here our AD grads come out with a broader knowledge base than any of the 3-yes 3 BSN programs in our immediate area. Our program required us to do lots of critical thinking--much more than the BSN does. Not to mention you tend to get an older, often more mature, and wiser person in an AD program compared to some BSN programs. Don't get me wrong, I'm already working on BSN--and for those of you who went right to college knowing your hearts desire was to be an RN, and have 'what it takes' and can critically think - alot of people can't- I am not bashing you. I'm just saying our program required us to do teaching projects about legislation and political action, critical thinking exercises out the wazoo--and with the nursing shortage if the states required everyone to have a BSN before practicing we would have to shut down hospitals because the units couldn't function without nurses, and those wonderful souls who have been holding the profession together for the last twenty years while 'progression' has totally changed the role of the nurse- some for good some for bad--couldn't honestly be expected to function in that way. There is current legislation to promote LPN programs because our current shortage won't peak until 2003, and then there will be a short decline, but in 10-15 it will reach an all time high, because all those nurses with twenty some years service now are going to get tired of putting up with all the new grads who come in and think they know more than a diploma grad from 1974--and they are going to retire. I learned more working with a diploma RN, an LPN and an LPN-RN thru an AD program with a combined total of 57 years experience than any book could ever teach--AD or BSN!!! In fact most of the coordinators I have talked to say that the AD program was much harder than getting their BSN and even MSN because so much is independent!!

    Just to say, lets promote the profession and education--but we would be stupid to cut our noses off to spite our faces.
  13. by   Mijourney
    Hi. Much of the discussion could boil down to:
    1. Are we made to feel inadequate with our various nursing backgrounds?
    2. How many of us define our worth as people or nurses by our educational background and titles?
    3. Should we be opposed to any attempts to change that which we consider near and dear to us?
    4. Will condensing titles and educational levels increase nursing's overall strength?
    5. Is it too late to try to restructure nursing education?
    The BSN entry level proposal has been in debate for nearly 40 years.
    Is the proposal an attempt by the AHA, AMA, and groups outside of nursing to maintain control? Or, was the initiative a sincere attempt by representatives from nursing to wrestle control of nursing from the AHA and AMA?

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