BSN minimum requirement - page 3

It is my firm belief that the minimum requirement for nursing should be a BSN. We want to be accepted as a profession, yet we allow 2 year programs to dominate the field. Now I went to a 2 year... Read More

  1. by   Lburns
    If we are going to be frank the board was an absolute waste of time. They were simple, basic questions anybody could answer and no where near a test of what makes a good nurse. The posting was not about the boards, it is about the professionalism of nursing in the year 2001. The boards are nothing more than a measure of how well you can study the NCLEX notebooks.

    Originally posted by MARTRN:
    I AM GONNA KEEP THIS REAL SIMPLE........................WE ALL TAKE THE SAME STATE BOARD EXAM!!!!!!!!!!!!! ENOUGH SAID.
  2. by   Lburns
    Couple of rebuttals if you don't mind:
    "I can't believe that you people have the nerve to sit and say that you are better than someone else because you have a BSN, MSN, PHD, or degree in IDIOT HEAD."
    Nowhere in my posting is it stated that anyone person is better than anyone else. However, beyond a personal attacks we as a society need nurses with more rounded educations.
    "Because we as nurses want to be more than what we are. Glorified butt wipers. Yesss. That is all you are."
    I don't believe that at all and if that is the case, all technical skills can be done by anyone taking an 8hr seminar. That is why it is so important for us to become more educated. We are a very powerful group of professionals but we don't show it. Let's face it, if we were taken as serious as lets say the NRA think of the health care policy we could affect and change. We aren't because people throw out the notions above, stagnating us not only as professionals but as people.
    "Do you think that because you have more education in THIS particular field you are better than someone else. You are soo wrong. "
    I don't think I am better than anybody, I do believe I am more prepared to face society and makes changes in health policy.
    "Besides most of you wont step foot into a nursing home because this is beneath you also, so tell me, who is going to take care of them. Get over it. All you are doing is making a living."
    I didn't get into nursing for making a living because there are many other ways that are easier to earn money. I sense some anger and perhaps fear in your statements stemming from somewhere other than my meager posting. However, I am in nursing to help people, to makes changes in others life, as a sense of accomplishment at the end of a hard day. I have worked in nursing homes as a volunteer and will continue to do so as I see fit.

    "because this is only for those who feel as though ADN, Diploma,and LPN's are beneath them. The Heavenly Father only knows what you think of CNA's. "
    CNAs work very hard, as do all the others. However, it remains their choice to do the job that they do. They certainly work with the rest of us as team players in caring for the pt.
    "And for your information. I am currently obtaining my BSN just because I want to not to attempt at putting others down."

    I hope that you find what you are looking for. Your letter exhibits so much anger
    and reads in so many things that I can only assume were left overs from your own experiences. However, if you truly believe you are a glorified "butt wiper" why ever would you spend the time and energy to get your BSN? I am glad for you but you statements are misleading and confusing. Good luck to you in your endeavors.
  3. by   NCNocRN
    Last edit by NCNocRN on May 15, '04
  4. by   lesliee
    I haven't read all the replies to this post, so maybe this issue has already been addressed. Why such aminosity towards nurses with BSN degrees? I really don't understand why people look down upon others that want to further their education - especially if that education is in a field that helps others.

    Now, I can understand this reaction if a person with a higher degree puts on "airs" as if his or her co-workers are less than adequate nurses. However, wouldn't that be a bad quality of an individual - not a group as a whole? As a BSN holder with less than a year's experience in the field, I take full advantage of learning tasks from more experienced nurses, whether they be LVN's, ADN's or diploma holders.

    It also seems that a majority of responders feel that nurses who have graduated with ADN's or from hospital programs are better equipped to jump right into the working world. Every one of them? I would hate to think that I am the only fairly new grad that feels somewhat insecure in my trade. Why would new grad programs exist if not to help the new grad learn more? Surely new grad programs are not aimed at BSN holders exclusively?!

  5. by   janine3&5
    Okay, only a student here (ADN), but wouldn't you say that either way-ADN or BSN-your education is only giving you a good foundation, that most of your learning comes from actually being out in the real world? Granted, you get an enormous amount of information, and the BSN can offer different opportunities, but either way, it's what you do with all that knowledge and how you learn to actually apply it to the real patients after graduating. Also, there are so many older students, single moms, working students, etc., for whom it is just not feasible to start with a full time four year program. These type of students make up the majority of our nursing program-there are very few younger students able to focus only on school-most of us need to work, have families, etc. Take the ADN program away and you are losing a large population of students-and with the whole nursing shortage thing, how will that affect staffing, patient care, etc.? I plan to pursue my BSN in a few years, but I have no doubt that I will be prepared to be a nurse with my ADN.
  6. by   lablover
    I agree that there should be some standard level of entry. Not to say that one level of education is better than another. I obtained my associate degree in 95 and have since gone on and am now working on my master's. Nursing has been striving toward calling itself a profession since I started and differentiating the different types of education would be a start. The issue of the state board has come up and I believe that there should be different exams for the different levels. It is a completely different type of education and those that have obtained that should be rewarded with increase pay and yes, those letters do mean something, especially to those that have earned them. I do not think that obtaining a BSN made me a better nurse but it has opened my mind and my ability to think more critically and holistically than I could before. I didn't learn anything in my ADN program about family or community health nursing and I certainly didn't have a management and leadership class.
  7. by   Tim-GNP
    The original post recognized the importance of a standard for entry level into practice. As I have already stated, there should be a standard. IMMEDIATELY, this begins a fight of 'who is better than who.' One observation I have made, is that the nurses with ADN's and Diplomas are posting many negative things about individuals with BSN's. From a psychological standpoint [yes, I didn't only walk away with the BSN, but I double majored in Psychology]--This is a typical response from individuals who manifest low self-esteem. They think that people are immediately attacking them.

    The degree does NOT mean that one person has greater 'psychomotor' skills than another. Only time and experience [I don't care what your educational level is] will bring about that level of competency. There was an excellent book that explains just this concept, written by Patricia Benner called "From Novice to Expert". I highly recommend it.

    We all have horror stories from working with MANY nurses. I have worked with BSN's who couldn't read a glass thermometer, and I have met diploma nurses who could not adjust to a new position as they were 'trained' [I hate that word when we use it to describe an educational process] in a hospital school of nursing--went to work for that hospital, and then later left. They were so 'trained' to work in that hospital that they could not comprehend the fact that different facilities operated in different ways. I have also worked with some ADN's who would come up to me and ask me "what does this order mean: metoproprolol 25 mg orally BID- hold for SBP <110 mm/hg."

    So, moral of the story is... you find 'challenges' everywhere. We should really stop attacking each other, acknowledge what we each bring to the table, and consider how we could improve nursing for the future. I personally liked my BSN program that gave 3 years of clinical practice. I think that was an excellent idea, however, I am sure others may disagree.



    ------------------
    Tis with our judgements as our watches, none go just alike, yet, each believes his own.
    -Alexander Pope
  8. by   sheripa
    Originally posted by Brownms46:
    Bickering...B****ing?? I think not! Even though I totally disagreed with the original poster, I have enjoyed reading the posts that sprang from it. The following is a quote from one I truly enjoyed..."I do believe that BSN should be the level of entry for those reasons but mostly because it allows an individual nurse to easily walk forward from the bedside into other roles when (or if) she tires of the role that the ADN/diploma program so aptly prepares their students for"

    This post validated my original post! "Allows the individual nurse to easily walk FORWARD FROM THE BEDSIDE into OTHER ROLES when(or if)she TIRES of the role that the ADN/diploma program so aptly prepares their students for" Now lets see if my uneducated tired old brain can grasp this concept. Now tell me if I get it wrong now. So the ADN/diploma programs aptly prepare their students for...umm now let me see here...nursing?? Hold on..I'll get it ...if those programs prepare them to nurse at the bedside...umm where does the BSN/MSN programs prepare you to work?? Hmmm..must NOT be at the bedside..eh? Now..let me go even further here...oooh this means really stretching my brain matter ...hold on...neurons are firing...HEY..I get it. Get you ADN....go on to get your BSN/MSN...so you DON'T have to work at the bedside anymore...is that it??? OOOhhh ok...so now...if having your BSN should be the entry level to nursing...and all the BSN as getting away from the bedside...and there are no other levels of nursing...ummm...now let me see here.....WHO IS AT THE BEDSIDE??
    OOh don't tell me...IT's THE NEW GRADS!!! Now won't that increase superlative patient care. Yeah ...right!

    Gloria
    I had to come back to see what everyone was writing is this was the best of all. I LOVED ALL THAT YOU SAID, WOULDN'T THAT BE NICE . If New Grads were the norm for bedside care. Great idea.
  9. by   sheripa
    Originally posted by Tim-GNP:
    Since spreading strife is my greatest joy... I submit this idea: go to your favorite doctor, and ask him/her how many years they went to school. Ask them what kind of a degree they have. Then go to a few more doctors and ask them the same questions.

    I think that the point of this discussion was making nursing a profession, by establishment of a minimal requirement for entry level into practice-not who has the better psychomotor skills.

    Insofar as those who only view nurses as 'butt wipers' I think it's your own butt you should wipe, with your RN license.
    That was me who stated that and I stand behind it because that is a daily task for any nurse who cares about her pts. As for your remark take your license and wipe you "butt" with it then lick it with your fat a** tongue stank ho*. And you wonder why we are not considered as professionals right.
  10. by   Mijourney
    Hi colleagues. I agree with previous posters who write that the BSN as entry level for nursing practice should not deteriorate into a debate about who's better.

    As a diploma nurse with a BSN (note I don't write former diploma nurse), I support some mechanism of condensing titles and standardizing nursing education. I do agree that the BSN programs, the ones in my area anyway, don't adequately prepare graduates for bedside nursing practice although I have found that BSN graduates frequently overcome their deficits within the first year or two and become very good practitioners as with ADNs and Diplomas.

    I support changing the entry level requirements for nursing practice mainly for two reasons. First, it is my belief that taking this action would reduce alot of the animosity, conflict, and lack of support between the various nursing titles and educational backgrounds-it would primarily increase nurses' strength. Improved professional status, positive recognition, and pay would be a welcome after effect although we are working on these now.

    Secondly, and I believe more importantly, I would like to see nursing education and titles changed as an act of rebellion against the AHA and AMA for staying in what should have been our business in the first place-dictating to us what is in our best interests and the patients' best interest while all along they've been taking the kitchen sink. (Yes, I know that nursing has been shooting itself in the foot).

    If I'm not mistaken, wasn't it these two groups that were adamantly opposed to the entry level suggestion in the first place, because somehow it would affect their level of power and control over patient care and over us and make them work even harder to establish a very high level of power, prestige, and independence?
  11. by   sheripa
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by LBURNS
    Couple of rebuttals if you don't mind:
    "I can't believe that you people have the nerve to sit and say that you are better than someone else because you have a BSN, MSN, PHD, or degree in IDIOT HEAD."
    Nowhere in my posting is it stated that anyone person is better than anyone else. However, beyond a personal attacks we as a society need nurses with more rounded educations.
    "Because we as nurses want to be more than what we are. Glorified butt wipers. Yesss. That is all you are."
    I don't believe that at all and if that is the case, all technical skills can be done by anyone taking an 8hr seminar. That is why it is so important for us to become more educated. We are a very powerful group of professionals but we don't show it. Let's face it, if we were taken as serious as lets say the NRA think of the health care policy we could affect and change. We aren't because people throw out the notions above, stagnating us not only as professionals but as people.
    "Do you think that because you have more education in THIS particular field you are better than someone else. You are soo wrong. "
    I don't think I am better than anybody, I do believe I am more prepared to face society and makes changes in health policy.
    "Besides most of you wont step foot into a nursing home because this is beneath you also, so tell me, who is going to take care of them. Get over it. All you are doing is making a living."
    I didn't get into nursing for making a living because there are many other ways that are easier to earn money. I sense some anger and perhaps fear in your statements stemming from somewhere other than my meager posting. However, I am in nursing to help people, to makes changes in others life, as a sense of accomplishment at the end of a hard day. I have worked in nursing homes as a volunteer and will continue to do so as I see fit.

    "because this is only for those who feel as though ADN, Diploma,and LPN's are beneath them. The Heavenly Father only knows what you think of CNA's. "
    CNAs work very hard, as do all the others. However, it remains their choice to do the job that they do. They certainly work with the rest of us as team players in caring for the pt.
    "And for your information. I am currently obtaining my BSN just because I want to not to attempt at putting others down."

    I hope that you find what you are looking for. Your letter exhibits so much anger
    and reads in so many things that I can only assume were left overs from your own experiences. However, if you truly believe you are a glorified "butt wiper" why ever would you spend the time and energy to get your BSN? I am glad for you but you statements are misleading and confusing. Good luck to you in your endeavors.
    [/QUO


    Now you think you are a therapist. I have anger towards people who sit and cry about simle things. You write a post about something that gets people all bent out of shape on when it is discussed with friends and you think that people are going to sit and be happy with it because YOU write it, well you are wrong. We, as you know worked hard in nursing school to get where we are today and for someone of the same profession to come say that we are not good enough because we didn't graduate from a 4 year school is crazy. If you don't consider your self a professional keep to yourself. You should always think that about yourself no matter what you do. I have my opinons and that is what they are, just what I wrote. If you don't like it so what. I don't have to have any anger because the statements I made. YOU are a very funny person for saying that. If someone says something that you don't like or agree with they have a problem. Sounds like you have a little problem there sweetie. Maybe you need to further your education and become a Dr. before you try to go around and making assumptions about what a person has going on in their lives. You know what! I just figured it out! YOU don't have enough control over your life so you try to control others that what it is isn't it. Get a life sweetheart. And as a matter of fact our job is done by other professionals everyday if you want to believe it or not. Go into a hospital that uses a LPN to do a RN's job and all we have to do is there assessment and this pt. has TLC. Or maybe you should go into a home for the Mentally or Physically Disabled, and CNA's or home companions are passing meds and doing tx's. with a 4-hour course that they are taught. And what about this, all of the family members that take care of their loved ones at home and all of the critical thinking that they use when taking care of them. So that is just what we are "GLORIFIED BUTT WIPERS", that must scare you and make you angry, me personally I'm o.k. with it because I knew what I was getting my self into. I know I will have a job after all this is said and done, the shortage of nurses will go on and I will continue on in school because I want to like I said before.
    Anyone who sees themselves as something other than a professional is the reason why we are not seen as professionals. You that is that classical conditioning and they did a good one on nurses. Go to a nurse who has been a nurse for 25-30 years and you all will understand why you feel the way you feel about yourself. It's called LOW SELF ESTEEM and you all are trying to live up to someone else's expectations. Just be the best nurse that you can be and care about your pts. everything will be alright. When I say you it isn't meant towards any particular person. BYEEEEE
  12. by   fergus51
    Is anyone else getting depressed about how we talk to eachother? I think the way the insults are flying on this board goes to show you that NOTHING will be able to unite all nurses. If we ALL had BSNs I am sure we would argue about which program prepared us more.

    I do believe a nurse is a nurse because we all get the basic knowledge and specialization occurs after graduation anyways. And as for the number of years doctors go to school: find out what they studied too. A person can go to med school here after studying three years of anything along with about 4 or 5 prereqs. I know a doctor who took journalism so he only studied medicine for 3 years. But I NEVER hear other doctors putting him down. Infighting seems to be a nursing specialty nowadays and it's one area that sure doesn't require an advanced degree.

    I got my BSN, but I don't think that makes me super nurse and I don't think it makes me a snobby ***** either. It was what was right for me and that's all that mattered.
  13. by   sheripa
    Originally posted by lambipie:
    Give me a bucket!!! You supposedly professional people sound like a bunch of children whining about who's education is better than who's, and which nurse is better than the next. While education is very important to ANY "profession", it is not the degree that makes the nurse. I know many ADN and Diploma prepared nurses who can run circles around the BSNs and MSNs, and vice versa. What really matters is the product that we are able to put out.....QUALITY, COMPETENT, and HUMANE ptient care. I have a Master's degree. I do not consider myself any better than an LPN, ADN, or BSN. I got a master's degree because I wanted to specialize. Aside from that, I think it is what we choose to do with our educations that makes or breaks us. This hoorah that i have been reading on this bulletin board today only serves to prove that we will never truly be a profession, no matter what the degree, until we stop bickering and fighting about who is better than whom, and acting like a bunch of badgers out to eat their young. Act like professionals for pete's sake.
    I am at home and an act anyway that I see fit. YOu people don't even realize what you say and what I said. I BASICALLY SAID , WE ALL NEED TO WORK TOGETHER AND NOT SAY THAT A PARTICULAR GROUP HAS TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT. FURTHERMORE, THAT YOU ALL SOUND AS IF YOU THINK YOU ARE BETTER (BSN,MSN NURSES) THAN OTHER NURSES. NOT THAT YOU ARE AND NOT THAT ALL OF THESE PARTICULAR NURSES FEEL THIS WAY. GOOD GRIEF

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