BSN is a joke - page 9

I am a nurse at a major hospital where I have worked over a year after gaining my ASN. I have returned to get my BSN. What I'm not understanding is why there is such an ENORMOUS disconnect between... Read More

  1. by   BostonFNP
    Quote from MurseJJ
    Do you need a degree to be able to understand apply...anything?
    No but you need the coursework and the experience!
  2. by   Wuzzie
    Quote from BostonFNP
    It's not about the person at all when you are looking at nursing as a profession (which is what all majors studies are doing)! There are always outliers, but on the whole and in aggregate, the more nurses that take additional research methods coursework the more nurses will be able to actively participate in research and application of that research. This is a basic principle of research methods!

    We agree it does not have to be in a BSN program, coursework is coursework, a degree is a piece of paper. Again, in aggregate, the more people with the piece of paper that requires it, the more people with gain expertise with it.
    Yes but it is up to the person to educate themselves beyond their foundation. What I'm saying is any nurse with any level of education can further themselves by taking courses and it does not require a degree to do so. There are people here posting this concrete idea that the ONLY nurses who can interpret and apply research to their practice are BSNs and that simply isn't true.
  3. by   BostonFNP
    Quote from Wuzzie
    Yes but it is up to the person to educate themselves beyond their foundation. What I'm saying is any nurse with any level of education can further themselves by taking courses and it does not require a degree to do so. There are people here posting this concrete idea that the ONLY nurses who can interpret and apply research to their practice are BSNs and that simply isn't true.
    It's not true absolutely, but in aggregate, may be more true than you think, especially if you (personally) are an outlier (and I don't mean the ability to access and interpret, I mean the expertise to do so in more depth).
  4. by   MunoRN
    Quote from BostonFNP
    Are you saying that ADN programs and BSN programs have the same curriculum? Can you share the curriculum and number of credits? I just have never seen this.
    The core nursing program for both an ADN and BSN degree is about 2 years of full time school, typically between 75 and 95 total credits. This was a few years ago so there may be more now, but at one point 14 states required all ASN programs to have articulation agreements with BSN programs, these agreements typically requires ASN programs to adopt the BSN programs core curriculums. In states that don't mandate these agreements, ASN programs still adopt the curriculums of their partnering BSN programs out of necessity. This is why ASN to BSN programs do not include any sort of remedial content, they are better described as post-Bac programs where the bachelor's is granted at the end of the post-Bac program.

    20 years ago or more you could reliably say that BSN grads had taken a statistics class (typically 3-5 credits) while ASN grads had not, but that's not particularly accurate anymore, ASN programs now often require a statistics class as a prerequisite, and not all BSN programs require statistics. But as someone who's job includes implementing evidence into practice I can say that this (formerly) additional 3-5 credits taken by BSNs don't reliably translate into a better understanding of utilization of research.
  5. by   BostonFNP
    Quote from MunoRN
    This is why ASN to BSN programs do not include any sort of remedial content, they are better described as post-Bac programs where the bachelor's is granted at the end of the post-Bac program.
    Ok that's understandable, but if the curriculum is the same then what credits/courses are taken? And how is it a post-bac program if there was no bac?


    Quote from MunoRN
    But as someone who's job includes implementing evidence into practice I can say that this (formerly) additional 3-5 credits taken by BSNs don't reliably translate into a better understanding of utilization of research.
    It might not be sufficient, but that's an argument for more not less isn't it? Do you feel that nurses are better off without any?
  6. by   Wuzzie
    Quote from BostonFNP
    It's not true absolutely, but in aggregate, may be more true than you think, especially if you (personally) are an outlier (and I don't mean the ability to access and interpret, I mean the expertise to do so in more depth).
    What I think is the absolute truth here is that a large percentage of nurses are satisfied with fulfilling minimal ce requirements to keep their license and nothing more. It does not mean they aren't capable of learning. They, for whatever reason, do not see advancing their education as necessary and that is truly sad. Maybe I am an outlier but the fact that I was able to learn and apply, in depth, the exact same research principles that my BSN colleagues had as part of their coursework is enough proof for me that a BSN is absolutely not necessary to practice on the same level. The onus was on me to take responsibility for my own continuing education.
  7. by   BostonFNP
    Quote from Wuzzie
    What I think is the absolute truth here is that a large percentage of nurses are satisfied with fulfilling minimal ce requirements to keep their license and nothing more. It does not mean they aren't capable of learning. They, for whatever reason, do not see advancing their education as necessary and that is truly sad. Maybe I am an outlier but the fact that I was able to learn and apply, in depth, the exact same research principles that my BSN colleagues had as part of their coursework is enough proof for me that a BSN is absolutely not necessary to practice on the same level. The onus was on me to take responsibility for my own continuing education.
    I wholeheartedly agree, and in essence, this is the reason behind the BSN push (along with the almighty $$$). Outliers take it upon themselves to be lifetime learners, the rest, do what is required of them and not much more.

    Again, you are misrepresenting the statistics: BSN is not absolutely necessary but it is relatively necessary. You made that argument yourself.
  8. by   krockadile
    In my opinion, I think you need to reevaluate what a BSN means to you. As someone else has said, you have the "nursing" part already completed. You need to get the bachelor of science completed. In my experience, ADNs are much more prepared for providing patient care while the BSN graduates have a difficulty with transitioning to patient care because it took them so long to compete their education and clinical experience. I know people who have "wasted" their time, but it was getting education from a non-accrediated school. Obtaining a BSN doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. You have a choice. Either pursue or don't.
  9. by   bellini
    Quote from elkpark
    Continuing education requirements are, IMO, a red herring. My father was a physician and, back when I was in high school, long before I ever imagined I'd end up in healthcare, our state instituted a requirement for continuing ed hours for physicians for license renewal. My father thought this was a stupid idea and I recall debating that with him at the time, making the same point -- isn't it obvious that requiring continuing education will ensure that practitioners stay current and fresh with their knowledge? His explanation to me at the time was this: The physicians who are active, interested, committed to professional growth, are already doing more continuing ed than the state requires. The people who don't care aren't going to magically start caring just because the state requires some number of hours. They will find the "path of least resistance" to meet the hours requirement, and there will be companies and individuals who will be happy to step forward to make money off enabling them to do that, but it's not going to make them any better practitioners, or more interested in personal/professional growth.

    Years later, as an RN (a CNS, actually), I was living and working in a state which instituted a new requirement for continuing ed hours for nurses for licensure renewal. It didn't affect me because I was already doing more hours than the state required just because I wanted to and felt it was a professional responsibility. However, I remembered the long-ago conversations with my father and was interested in seeing how this would work out in the state. What I saw was that all the hospitals in my area immediately instituted a system of monthly nursing continuing ed programs (the state requirement was 24 hours of education for two-year license renewal, so one hour a month met the minimum requirement), free, offered multiple times on multiple shifts so it was easy for everyone to attend. My service was tasked with providing a few of the presentations, so I was a presenter for a few of the inservices, and I also attended a few others because they were topics that interested me. What I observed was many nurses showing up, sitting in the back of the room, literally reading a magazine (this was pre-"everybody has the internet in their hands at all times") or chatting with their friends throughout, clearly making no effort whatsoever to even pretend to be paying attention to the presentation -- and, at the end, they got their certificate for their hour of continuing ed, and they would have 24 hours by the time their licenses were due for renewal. Was that exercise contributing to their professional growth? Was that making them better, more knowledgeable nurses? Of course not.

    I get mailings at home periodically now, from a company that specializes in doing this, a magazine of "self-study" continuing education for nurses that I can use to pay a fee, complete the ridiculously simple "post-tests" (which are obviously written so that people can complete them without even reading the articles, or just casually skimming them) and get the number of continuing hours I need to renew my license in my state. It is simply an exercise in selling CE hours. They make money, nurses get their continuing ed hours, the BON apparently doesn't really care, and everyone's happy. Does that actually make anyone a more knowledgeable, competent clinician? Of course not. As my father noted decades ago, people who care are already making an effort; people who don't will find the cheapest, easiest way to meet the requirements. The requirements don't change anything (except that a lot more organizations are making money from selling CE hours, of course).

    As the old saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."
    Like this X 1000
  10. by   AJJKRN
    Quote from Lipoma
    I'm currently in an accelerated BSN program and one of my instructors said "nurses are the least credentialed licensed health care professional at the bedside."

    After I thought about it...I realized it was so true. You have speech therapists (MS), physical therapists (DPT), physicians (MD/DO), advanced practice providers (PA - masters, NP - masters/DNP, CAA - masters), dietitians (BS)...yet there are still diploma nurses and or ASN nurses at the bedside. You won't find another licensed health care professional at the bedside with less than a Bachelors...so nurses are now playing catch up.
    I just find it a bit funny that all of the professions mentioned above do not work at the bedside as bedside nurses really do. Have you had clinicals yet? Just wait, you'll see what I'm eluding to.

    And on a side note, bedside nurses are not able to bill separately for their services...

    And you may be surprised to find that a lot of the professionals you mentioned have varied ways into their entry of practice as well, we're just not as privy to them because it's not the path we have chosen and hence researched academic wise...
  11. by   CKPM2RN
    Quote from JKL33
    The joke part is that advanced and expert-level knowledge isn't wanted at the bedside as far as I can see. At the same time that BSN entry level to practice is becoming more common, efforts are underway to, for example, decrease need and opportunity for critical thinking. Problems that we want to solve are not the problems that others come up with. There are many mixed messages and I won't pretend that that the disconnect you mention doesn't exist.
    Amen sister.
  12. by   AJJKRN
    Quote from MunoRN
    ASN and BSN program curriculum have become essentially identical, so I'm curious how you believe that despite being taught under the same curriculum that BSN students will learn different things than ASN students.
    Thank you!

    Hail to the Chevy :-)
  13. by   MunoRN
    Quote from BostonFNP
    Ok that's understandable, but if the curriculum is the same then what credits/courses are taken? And how is it a post-bac program if there was no bac?
    Nursing programs often organize the same content and curriculum different, so it doesn't really lend itself to compare them by how they break down their classes. Using the exact same content and curriculum for one quarter, one may lump it all together into a single 15 credit class, another might break it down into three 5 credit courses. This is usually dependent on things like faculty schedules, clinical site availability, etc.

    ASN to BSN programs don't involve remedial BSN content, unless they graduated from a program a few decades ago, they are already at the same point in their educational pathway as a BSN grad once they've completed any missing pre-reqs. The content of an ASN to BSN program builds on that common content combined with experience, which is what a post-bac is.

    Quote from BostonFNP
    It might not be sufficient, but that's an argument for more not less isn't it? Do you feel that nurses are better off without any?
    I agree, and there's already a trend towards having a statistics class as a pre-requisite to both ASN and BSN programs, which is a good thing.

close