4.0 GPA ...Great memorizing abilities.Yes...Good thinking/reasoning skills maybe not! - page 5

I've notice alot of posts regarding NS drop outs! Whats going on? Can it be that the instructors aren't competent enough? Is it that many students have other responsiblities besides NS( families,... Read More

  1. by   cardiacRN2006
    Quote from BSNDec06
    I think that GPA has some bearing on a student's ability to do well in nursing school, because there is a tremendous amount of information to learn.
    Yes, GPA has some correlation with how well a student will perform in nursing school, not in nursing. So a GPA should have some bearing. But then we should look at the things that might correlate with being a good nurse. Community work, healthcare experience, etc. Then we should look at how well a person will represent nursing, can they write a cohesive sentance, can they interact with people? An essay and interview could evaulate this.
    All of the top 5-10 people in my program (GPA, clincial work, interaction with people and patients), where PCTs in hospitals who had higher GPAs when they applied to the program.

    On a side note, I've heard people say that 4.0s or high GPAs were easy because students took one class at a time. If that were the case, students would be on the waiting list forever. Quite the contrary, most students are taking more classes now so that they can get on the list ASAP.


    BTW, when I got hired at my job, they did ask for certified transcripts. So it's not just IBM looking at that! I was the only new grad hired in my dept, and I had to give them a reason for wanting me.
  2. by   cardiacRN2006
    Quote from Tommybabe
    Many law and medical schools require these "extras" for admission, so I find it interesting that some nursing schools don't.
    LOL! I did my final project in my Nursing issues class on this very same subject. It was evaulating nursing school admission criteria vs other professional programs, such as med school, law school, pharmacy school, and dental hygiene. We lack sorely in comparison.
  3. by   SmilingBluEyes
    I am shocked that ANY school uses "first come, first served" as a basis/criterion for entry. Unbelievable.

    See, this proves my point that more consistent guidelines for entry criteria for incoming nursing students are needed, and NOW. We don't need "fast" or "slick" people----we need intelligent, caring people who have a bit of integrity!
  4. by   BSNtobe2009
    Quote from cardiacRN2006
    On a side note, I've heard people say that 4.0s or high GPAs were easy because students took one class at a time. If that were the case, students would be on the waiting list forever. Quite the contrary, most students are taking more classes now so that they can get on the list ASAP.
    I just wanted to make one clarification before anyone takes my post out of context.

    I also said in the same post that I did NOT think that everyone that had a 4.0 GPA took one class at a time.

    However, it would be interesting to see how many of the 4.0 students that were dropped from the nursing program due to failure, in fact, did. Taking a full class load is not the same thing as taking one class at a time and requires a whole different issue with time management.

    When I was in college the first time around, I took my most difficult courses during the summer months so I could focus all of my attention on them and nothing else.
  5. by   floridagirl0103
    I am in my first semester of nursing school at a community college. We have 130 students (400 applied) and about 10 of the students failed out last year. My instructors are VERY competent and smart. The drop up is probably due to the demands of nursing school. I graduated from a university w/ high honors and it was MUCH easier than nursing school at a community college. It is extremely intense. There is no such thing as studying or cramming the night before. You have to want to learn the stuff to keep you motivated or you will crash and burn. Personally, I love learning and am having much fun. I barely am holding on to my "A" average. There are many students who were used to getting straight A's that are now getting C's. That is just the way nursing school is.
  6. by   Tweety
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    I am shocked that ANY school uses "first come, first served" as a basis/criterion for entry. Unbelievable.

    See, this proves my point that more consistent guidelines for entry criteria for incoming nursing students are needed, and NOW. We don't need "fast" or "slick" people----we need intelligent, caring people who have a bit of integrity!


    I don't know Deb, this way everyone who wants to be a nurse, and who is willing to wait the years it takes to get in, gets an opportunity. I think the long wait lists weed out a lot of people who really don't want to be a nurse. Nursing school is currently weeding out 4.0 nurses and nurses who are interviewed at alarming rates, so surely nursing schools will continue to weed out those who can't cut it.

    Those kind, caring, compassionate people with excellent bedside skills, but a 3.5 get in alongside those 4.0 brainiacs.

    I'd like to think I have all those qualities you mentioned and come from one of those schools of first signup first in line. We were an odd bunch. 60 in and 62 out (two LPNs joined us the 2nd year), the first time that ever happened in my school.

    Just a thought.
    Last edit by Tweety on Oct 23, '06
  7. by   cardiacRN2006
    Quote from BSNtobe2009
    I just wanted to make one clarification before anyone takes my post out of context.

    I also said in the same post that I did NOT think that everyone that had a 4.0 GPA took one class at a time.

    However, it would be interesting to see how many of the 4.0 students that were dropped from the nursing program due to failure, in fact, did. Taking a full class load is not the same thing as taking one class at a time and requires a whole different issue with time management.

    When I was in college the first time around, I took my most difficult courses during the summer months so I could focus all of my attention on them and nothing else.
    I didn't quote you in my original response for a reason. I said I've heard some people, and that means more than on person. I've heard it from lots of people in school as well. When you have a really high GPA, you hear it a lot. If I were referring directly to you, I would have quoted your response, like I've done now.
  8. by   Freedom42
    A previous poster wrote: "LOL! I did my final project in my Nursing issues class on this very same subject. It was evaulating nursing school admission criteria vs other professional programs, such as med school, law school, pharmacy school, and dental hygiene. We lack sorely in comparison."

    How can you compare nursing school admission standards to those of med school and law school, which require bachelor's degrees at a minimum? I can't speak to pharmacy programs -- there are none in my home state -- but to be admitted to nursing school (ADN or BSN) or a dental hygiene program requires only a high school diploma as the minimum academic credential. (I'm not talking GPA here, only credential.) So, yes, nursing admission standards "lack sorely" in comparison because a BSN requires far less education than an MD or a JD.

    Wouldn't a more apt comparison be between graduate nursing programs, medical schools and law schools?

    Flame on. I'm wearing asbestos.
  9. by   cardiacRN2006
    Quote from Freedom42
    A previous poster wrote: "LOL! I did my final project in my Nursing issues class on this very same subject. It was evaulating nursing school admission criteria vs other professional programs, such as med school, law school, pharmacy school, and dental hygiene. We lack sorely in comparison."

    How can you compare nursing school admission standards to those of med school and law school, which require bachelor's degrees at a minimum? I can't speak to pharmacy programs -- there are none in my home state -- but to be admitted to nursing school (ADN or BSN) or a dental hygiene program requires only a high school diploma as the minimum academic credential. (I'm not talking GPA here, only credential.) So, yes, nursing admission standards "lack sorely" in comparison because a BSN requires far less education than an MD or a JD.

    Wouldn't a more apt comparison be between graduate nursing programs, medical schools and law schools?

    Flame on. I'm wearing asbestos.
    That was me. Let's just talk about Dental Hygiene. Sorry, it takes more than a HS diploma to get into that program. It's also a semester more than the ADN program, and requires a semester more in prereqs.

    Do we not consider ourselves professionals? That's why we compared ourselves with other professionals. We also compared nursing to police academies and fire academies. I can't think of a single professional education program that is just 'first come first serve'. In addition, a lot of programs do not look at GPA or perform interviews. Even the pharmacy TECH program had interviews. Dental assistant and vet techs did as well!

    Sorry, but we are still sorely lacking in comparison--and I don't need to 'flame' someone to prove that point.
  10. by   ortess1971
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    I think standards CAN be raised, but this needs to be done fairly and consistently across the board. And I believe the standards can be raised WITHOUT making a 4.0 GPA a pre-requisite for entry .....

    Truly, those of us who are nurses all know people who are excellent nursing candidates or nurses, but not necessarily were/are straight-A students.

    Personally, I think it would be helpful to interview candidates and get a feel for them before acceptance. Time-consuming? Perhaps, but how much time is consumed right now, weeding out people who should never have been accepted in the first place? I mean, I was not an instructor, but I could see clearly in the first week, who should and should not probably become a nurse.

    Also, how about looking hard at the whole person? Possibly considering those who have taken the time to perform community service and/or volunteered in some capacity? Or were involved in their high school in community-service-oriented activities? Or perhaps we could require character references, similar to those needed for job application processes? Those who do well in these areas are the types likely to make EXCELLENT nurses, IMO.

    There, I have come up with a couple of ways to raise standards that do not include simply raising the GPA requirement (which just does nothing to ensure a person has what it takes to be a good nurse).

    No one wants to see fewer people become nurses; we just want to see higher-caliber people joining our ranks. It would appear there is no shortage of people trying to get into nursing school-----so why not look HARD at those who are, in some other way than just book smarts?

    JMO anyhow.
    Excellent posts with some good ideas-I too would like schools to get the big picture of a person before admitting them. To me, there is a big difference between someone who has a 4.0, but doesn't work, is supported by mom and dad etc and someone who has a GPA of 3.3(as an example)but is a parent or who works fulltime. Don't get me wrong a 4.0 is something to be proud of but some people have more responsibilities than others. I could never figure out why the instructors gave anyone who worked such a hard time. Evidently, we weren't lazy and we really wanted to be there(on wednesdays, I pulled a 16 hour shift). Everyone is not the same. Just because some people who worked flunked out ,didn't mean I was going to.
  11. by   Freedom42
    Absolutely, nurses are professionals. But there are differing levels of professionalism. It's not fair to say that admission standards for two or four-year nursing programs are "lacking" in comparison to law and medical schools that require a bachelor's degree for starters. These are apples and oranges.

    Likewise, why compare nursing education at any level to the lesser training of police and firefighters? How many police officers are required to have college degrees before they take their licensing test? In New England, they're typically required to be at least 25, have a high school diploma and, provided they pass a psych exam, undergo 12 weeks of training at a police academy. Yes, there are college-level criminal justice programs. But most police officers don't seek that level of training.

    As far as dental hygiene goes, in my home state, admission to a dental hygiene program requires a high school diploma or a GED. It is a two-year program.

    I certainly agree with tyou that nurses are professionals and should be respected as such. And perhaps it is time to change admission standards in an effort to reduce attrition. But I respectfully suggest that comparing nursing school admission standards to those of graduate programs -- or to programs that require no college education at all -- only devalues the ADN or BSN so many of us are working toward.
  12. by   Gods child
    Quote from santhony44
    I had an interview for graduate school.

    I agree that they are important- I think you can get a better idea in person than just on paper.

    I've known of schools which did not do interviews for admission. Oddly enough, they did not hire employees without an in-person interview! I guess they were afraid that if they saw someone face to face and that person didn't get admitted, the prospective student would say that it was because they were old/young, male/female, black/white/brown/purple or whatever.

    Well, that could actually be the case. The people on the selection committee are not immune to having personal bias. For example, I have read here that one can tell who would make a good nurse within the first few minutes of talking to them. Something like that is too subjective (with the exception of extreme cases). That is the main problem I see with interviewing candidates for nursing school. Other than that, I think it's a great idea.
  13. by   ortess1971
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    I am shocked that ANY school uses "first come, first served" as a basis/criterion for entry. Unbelievable.

    See, this proves my point that more consistent guidelines for entry criteria for incoming nursing students are needed, and NOW. We don't need "fast" or "slick" people----we need intelligent, caring people who have a bit of integrity!
    The school I graduated from did this..There were basic standards(you had to have a GPA of 2.5, I think) but someone with a GPA of 2.9 could get in before someone with a 3.9 as long as they were higher on the waiting list. These weaker students found out awfully quick that they were in deep trouble...Mine was not an easy program, despite the waiting list nonsense. I went to one of the advisors to find out what number I was on the list and asked out of curiousity why they didn't use GPA,interviews, or an entrance exam(like they used to 15-20 years ago!) and I was told I was "elitist". Funny thing though, they have recently started trying to raise standards again(Have to pass physiology with a B) and they may try to bring the entrance exam back. If we want nursing to be taken seriously, we have to start valuing intelligence , strong skills and critical thinking along with bedside manner. Compassion, while vital, is not all that's needed to be a good nurse.

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