"Just" a 2-year degree - page 10

Stopped at local pharmacy to pick up prescription. Asked pharm tech how her daughter was (she's a traveling nurse); she said great, we briefly discussed how she's deciding between staying and moving... Read More

  1. by   scaredofshots
    Quote from BSNtobe2009
    Well, I don't consider ASN programs "3 or 4-year" programs, because someone goes part-time, finishes their pre-req's first to give their application more weight for admissions, etc. Does that mean I have a 6 year degree because it took me that long to complete my BS?

    Of course it doesn't.
    WHATEVER! It takes someone a complete 3 years to get the ASN! One full year plus summer classes for all pre reqs and then two FULL years of nursing classes!!
    Last edit by nightingale on Oct 14, '06
  2. by   BSNtobe2009
    Quote from scaredofshots
    WHATEVER! It takes someone a complete 3 years to get the ASN! One full year plus summer classes for all pre reqs and then two FULL years of nursing classes!! :
    First, let's keep it professional.

    Second, I have found at least a dozen different nursing programs where Chem and AP were part of the Nursing program and were not required to be completed prior to admittance, including the one I am applying to. Since there are a couple of semesters between now and when the program starts in the Fall of 2007, I am taking the most difficult courses in advance so that when I start, it will just be nursing classes and not English, computer literacy, etc. This is strictly for my personal convenience and not required.

    For the record, I have known several women who have applied and were accepted based on course they took in high school and high school GPA.
    Last edit by nightingale on Oct 14, '06
  3. by   Roy Fokker
    Ladies and Gentlemen,

    This has been a good 12 page long thread. A friendly reminder to keep the TOS in mind - specifically about debates and disagreements:


    Quote from Terms of Service (TOS)
    Debates
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    Happy posting!

    - Roy
    allnurses.com moderator
  4. by   smk1
    Quote from BSNtobe2009
    Well, I don't consider ASN programs "3 or 4-year" programs, because someone goes part-time, finishes their pre-req's first to give their application more weight for admissions, etc. Does that mean I have a 6 year degree because it took me that long to complete my BS?

    Of course it doesn't.
    What about the person who goes fulltime, repeats no courses, matriculates into the nursing program and the actual amount of time in school is 3 years (the minimum that you can get your ADN at my school) 1 full year of prereqs NOT coreqs, and 2 years of nursing. This is why if I were to go fulltime to pursue my BSN upon graduation it will only take 1 year. The credit load alone for ADN is more than most AA degrees if I am not mistaken. Not saying ADN/BSN are the same, just saying that not enough credit is given to the ADN, even though it usually takes longer than 2 years and uses more credits that a normal AA degree.
  5. by   BSNtobe2009
    Generally speaking, when people hear the term "ASN" or "AA", they are still referred to as "2 year degrees" regardless of how long the person actually spent getting the degree, or the requirements of the specific CC or Hospital-based program.

    At major universities, there are tons of majors, that cannot be completed in 4 years, such as certain types of engineering, accounting is another profession that is beginning to go over the 4 year mark, and many others. In fact, 5 years is very slowly getting to be the norm rather than the exception. Here is something to consider:

    If you were with a group of University Alumni, and a non-alumni referred to your degree as a 4-year degree, and let's say you had a major in Biomedical Engineering where you spent an easy full 5 years, if you "corrected" them and said, "Oh, I don't have a 4 year degree, I spent 5 years getting mine because that is what my major at my school required," I can tell you with certainty, one of two things would happen: Radio silence where you could hear a pin drop in disbelief, or you would be laughed at hysterically.

    People just don't do that at a University level, and it would be very embarrassing to put yourself in that situation, and for the life of me, I don't know why people do this on a CC level.

    I attribute it to going to an expensive restaurant and asking the bartender how much drinks are...nobody really knows why you don't do it, but people know you just don't.

    Every CC has different requirements, and I have absolutely no misconceptions at all that my ASN adventure will probably be the most difficult thing I will tackle. However, traditionally speaking, CC give 2-year degrees, and Universities give 4-year degrees. So people shouldn't be shocked when people refer to theirs accordingly.

    This is also why, the ASN/BSN debate on this board has actually suprised me. It all depends on your career goals, one is not 'better' than the other. That is very different than having advantages and disadvantages of both, because they most certainly have them

    I can tell you now, if I had no interest in being a charge nurse or going into management or graduate school, even if I didn't have my BS, I wouldn't even waste my time with a BSN...but that is me. Someone else may think differently and there is no right or wrong answer to it.

    I just don't think people should feel the need to "remind" people of how long they spent in school or get offended if they don't know the requirements of your school and their policies, I mean, when you think about it, that's just silly, how would they know?

    People making the assumption that a 2-year degree (no matter how long they really spent on it) equals the same thing as devaluing the degree you have, or that you are not qualified, or that you didn't work hard to get it is just as silly.

    Added Note: On a flip note, I haven't seen any colleges where you can transfer from an ASN (upon graduating) into a BSN program where it would only take 1 year to get your BSN. That is one of the biggest reasons I am returning to my alma mater because I couldn't find one where it wouldn't take me another 3 years, and that is with me already having a BS. It's still going to take me 1 1/2 years, but that is only because I graduated from there. That is because most Universities have gen-ed requirements and what you take at a CC usually won't satisfy all of them or they have specific classes they want you to take.

    Quote from SMK1
    What about the person who goes fulltime, repeats no courses, matriculates into the nursing program and the actual amount of time in school is 3 years (the minimum that you can get your ADN at my school) 1 full year of prereqs NOT coreqs, and 2 years of nursing. This is why if I were to go fulltime to pursue my BSN upon graduation it will only take 1 year. The credit load alone for ADN is more than most AA degrees if I am not mistaken. Not saying ADN/BSN are the same, just saying that not enough credit is given to the ADN, even though it usually takes longer than 2 years and uses more credits that a normal AA degree.
    Last edit by BSNtobe2009 on Oct 14, '06
  6. by   Tweety
    Quote from SMK1
    What about the person who goes fulltime, repeats no courses, matriculates into the nursing program and the actual amount of time in school is 3 years (the minimum that you can get your ADN at my school) 1 full year of prereqs NOT coreqs, and 2 years of nursing. This is why if I were to go fulltime to pursue my BSN upon graduation it will only take 1 year. The credit load alone for ADN is more than most AA degrees if I am not mistaken. Not saying ADN/BSN are the same, just saying that not enough credit is given to the ADN, even though it usually takes longer than 2 years and uses more credits that a normal AA degree.

    ADN's of today should be angry at this. They are awarded what is in the academic world considered a "two year degree" designed to bridge towards a bachelor's, or provide an entry level into a non-bachelored degree job, and turned it into more than an Associates Degree into something more.

    I think the ADN's are being taken advantage of.
  7. by   BSNtobe2009
    Quote from Tweety
    ADN's of today should be angry at this. They are awarded what is in the academic world considered a "two year degree" designed to bridge towards a bachelor's, or provide an entry level into a non-bachelored degree job, and turned it into more than an Associates Degree into something more.

    I think the ADN's are being taken advantage of.
    I wouldn't disagree with that statement at all and your post accurately portrays what is happening in the CC system.
  8. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from Tweety
    ADN's of today should be angry at this. They are awarded what is in the academic world considered a "two year degree" designed to bridge towards a bachelor's, or provide an entry level into a non-bachelored degree job, and turned it into more than an Associates Degree into something more.

    I think the ADN's are being taken advantage of.
    I don't think ADNs are being taken advantage of.

    To be sure, nursing is the model around which many community colleges have built their entire schools. The CC model rose at the same time as the ADN models and it could be reasonably argued that the ADN programs served to create or solidify those very CCs into working models.

    But, the ADN program was originally envisioned to be something entirely different than it is today. When ADN programs rose to meet the challenges of today's professional nurse, 2 yrs were simply not enough prep. So, those programs added necessary pre-reqs to 'bridge the gap'.

    Those programs were not originally designed to 'bridge the gap' to BSN. They were designed to create, as you say, the education to fill a non-bach job at a lower level than BSN. But, not only the actual uses of ADN nurses, but the settling upon a single title, RN, to denote multiple degree paths served to undo that concept of a 'technical' nurse.

    So, those extra courses do indeed 'bridge the gap' towards BSN. Notice that I did not say that made them equal to BSN programs. The result was mutually beneficial, however. To the extent that CCs used nursing to advance its cause, nursing used CCs to advance its cause.

    In 1965, only 16% of nurses were educated in BSN programs. The need was undeniable for nursing to move to college level prep. ADN programs bridged that gap and brought nursing as a whole to college level prep. BSN programs couldn't do that alone in 1965, and they couldn't do that alone today.

    It is a case of mutual benefit, not just for ADNs, but for all RNs.

    And the results speak for themselves. I might have an "CC" degree, but tell me this: how many bach degrees can consistently earn over 85k/yr? Many, to be sure, but my degree stands reasonable economic comparison to a majority of bach degree programs and is completely in the stratosphere in comparison to other CC programs. Indeed, I HAVE a bach degree. But, I make my living on my ADN.

    And while nursing might one day be BSN minimum entry, we couldn't have gotten to the level to even discuss it with the ADN programs that made college level prep the across the board standard. Even today's diploma programs teach the same college level prep material.

    Nursing owes a debt to the working model that made college level prep the standard: ADN. Rather than denigrate it (and I'm not saying the previous posters did), the goal for the future should be how to best integrate it into an evolving standard.

    We are all professional nurses. No matter how we choose to someday define our future, there is enough respect to go around. But, that respect must be mutually claimed and not fought over.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Oct 14, '06
  9. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from BSNtobe2009
    Generally speaking, when people hear the term "ASN" or "AA", they are still referred to as "2 year degrees" regardless of how long the person actually spent getting the degree, or the requirements of the specific CC or Hospital-based program.

    At major universities, there are tons of majors, that cannot be completed in 4 years, such as certain types of engineering, accounting is another profession that is beginning to go over the 4 year mark, and many others. In fact, 5 years is very slowly getting to be the norm rather than the exception. Here is something to consider:

    If you were with a group of University Alumni, and a non-alumni referred to your degree as a 4-year degree, and let's say you had a major in Biomedical Engineering where you spent an easy full 5 years, if you "corrected" them and said, "Oh, I don't have a 4 year degree, I spent 5 years getting mine because that is what my major at my school required," I can tell you with certainty, one of two things would happen: Radio silence where you could hear a pin drop in disbelief, or you would be laughed at hysterically.

    People just don't do that at a University level, and it would be very embarrassing to put yourself in that situation, and for the life of me, I don't know why people do this on a CC level.

    I attribute it to going to an expensive restaurant and asking the bartender how much drinks are...nobody really knows why you don't do it, but people know you just don't.

    Every CC has different requirements, and I have absolutely no misconceptions at all that my ASN adventure will probably be the most difficult thing I will tackle. However, traditionally speaking, CC give 2-year degrees, and Universities give 4-year degrees. So people shouldn't be shocked when people refer to theirs accordingly.

    This is also why, the ASN/BSN debate on this board has actually suprised me. It all depends on your career goals, one is not 'better' than the other. That is very different than having advantages and disadvantages of both, because they most certainly have them

    I can tell you now, if I had no interest in being a charge nurse or going into management or graduate school, even if I didn't have my BS, I wouldn't even waste my time with a BSN...but that is me. Someone else may think differently and there is no right or wrong answer to it.

    I just don't think people should feel the need to "remind" people of how long they spent in school or get offended if they don't know the requirements of your school and their policies, I mean, when you think about it, that's just silly, how would they know?

    People making the assumption that a 2-year degree (no matter how long they really spent on it) equals the same thing as devaluing the degree you have, or that you are not qualified, or that you didn't work hard to get it is just as silly.

    Added Note: On a flip note, I haven't seen any colleges where you can transfer from an ASN (upon graduating) into a BSN program where it would only take 1 year to get your BSN. That is one of the biggest reasons I am returning to my alma mater because I couldn't find one where it wouldn't take me another 3 years, and that is with me already having a BS. It's still going to take me 1 1/2 years, but that is only because I graduated from there. That is because most Universities have gen-ed requirements and what you take at a CC usually won't satisfy all of them or they have specific classes they want you to take.
    I see your point, and it is a valid perspective.

    But, so is the OP's. The person she was dealing with was an allied health peer and obviously knew the implications of what was being said. It was meant as a putdown.

    I see your point that maybe it serves no purpose to be put down by a technically accurate, if mean spirited comment. The subsequent comments relate to a very real observation, that while technically accurate, the ADN programs do not conform to or rather, they outperform the typical CC degree.

    The observations made here are valid. You relate that if such observations were made of four year degrees, the result would be laughable. I don't agree that this perspective accurately translates to this discussion. As I said in the last post, the earning power of an ADN degree is in the stratosphere as compared to other CC programs. That DOES indeed merit attn to the difference between that degree and other CC degrees, and the difference in requirements to attain them.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Oct 14, '06
  10. by   CV_RN
    Quote from widi96
    I have attended both an ADN and BSN program and must say that I think the BSN program does give a little better base, but there is NO "just" to an ADN Program. 95% of a nurse depends on the person - not the type of degree. I know a couple of our BSN nurses that couldn't hold a candle to a handful of our ADN nurses.
    This is very true! I also work with many LVN's who could run circles around both ADN's and BSN's. It all depends on the person and their on the job training and education.
  11. by   BSNtobe2009
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    I see your point, and it is a valid perspective.

    But, so is the OP's. The person she was dealing with was an allied health peer and obviously knew the implications of what was being said. It was meant as a putdown.

    I see your point that maybe it serves no purpose to be put down by a technically accurate, if mean spirited comment. The subsequent comments relate to a very real observation, that while technically accurate, the ADN programs do not conform to or rather, they outperform the typical CC degree.

    The observations made here are valid. You relate that if such observations were made of four year degrees, the result would be laughable. I don't agree that this perspective accurately translates to this discussion. As I said in the last post, the earning power of an ADN degree is in the stratosphere as compared to other CC programs. That DOES indeed merit attn to the difference between that degree and other CC degrees, and the difference in requirements to attain them.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    The reason I posted this is because I think it's very relevant to the discussion at hand. If you go back and read the original question, the pharm tech said:

    "well, you guys here make really good money with just a two year degree"

    Somehow, that was translated in this thread into the pharm tech stating that the RN wasn't qualified, that she didn't work hard for her degree, that "I spent way more than 2 years on it", but I maintain, and still maintain, that what the PT said was correct and not meant to be insulting.

    Then this started "morphing" into posts regarding "well at my school we had to take......" the general public is not going to be aware, and doesn't need to be aware, of the individual admission/graduation policies of your local ASN program.

    You are 100% correct on the income issue, and I did mention this in previous posts in this thread. That was what made the PT's comment even more correct.

    I was drawing a comparison to what takes place at a University level so people can understand that this same type of conversation as to how many years someone takes to complete their degree, doesn't take place on ANY other educational level with any other profession, regardless of how long someone spent getting their degree. People should feel comfortable with their level of education and expertise and not feel they have to go through life corrrecting everyone.
    Last edit by BSNtobe2009 on Oct 14, '06
  12. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from BSNtobe2009
    I was drawing a comparison to what takes place at a University level so people can understand that this same type of conversation as to how many years someone takes to complete their degree, doesn't take place on ANY other educational level with any other profession, regardless of how long someone spent getting their degree, and I think the entire debate on this subject is silly. People should feel comfortable with their level of education and expertise and not feel they have to go through life corrrecting everyone.
    I maintain that its not silly to point out the differences.

    Look, nursing has a sordid history of a public image problem. No matter how advanced and skilled nursing has become, people still dismiss nurses as 'angels', or rather, as simply empathetic caregivers.

    That is at the heart of the original comment.

    I'll give you another example: one of my pts told me this the other night: "In my book, you're a doctor." Meant as a high compliment. If I decided to take the comments at face value, which I didn't, I'd be offended.

    See, the translation of that comment is this: there's more to you than being an empathetic assistant - you actually have the potential to be an advanced expert. While I appreciate that sentiment, I am an advanced expert professional, now.

    I agree with you. I didn't need to correct the guy.

    But, some assertions DO need to be corrected. You are correct that ADN is technically a CC degree. But to dismiss it as 'just' such a degree IS inaccurate and deserves to be challenged - especially considering who said it: someone that should have known better.

    To use your example about this conversation taking place at the bach level. If one bach degree consistently made 300,000k a year the first year out of college, I have no doubt that if I was with peers and one of them said, 'not bad for just a bach degree' that it would be pointed out, if not by me, then by others, something to the effect, 'not just any degree, but the big bang degree!' - and that would be a reasonable assertion to suggest and defend.

    Another thing - you can bet that 300k 'big bang bach' degree would have some of the longest waiting lists in the country and wouldn't be 'just a bach degree' in another key aspect - only the very top cream of bach students would have a shot at it. That makes a difference in the degree, as well.

    If a similar situation existed at the Bach level, I stipulate that there would be widespread discussion about the implications and power of such a degree. I stipulate that being in such a program would be considered being in the 'elite'. I disagree that it would be met with ridicule to point that out.

    Finally, let me point out that these comments on this thread are made on our board. Some venting about the frustrations that come down to the persistent image problem that nursing has is not silly, and it is quite ok to vent here about it.

    It's not that I disagree with your perspective. I think it is a valid point of view. I also think that the OPs POV is an accurate perspective. It isn't any more silly a perspective than yours.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Oct 14, '06
  13. by   BSNtobe2009
    Well, I'm "over and out" on this thread, mainly, because you and I are going to have to agree to disagree.

    The pharmacy tech's comment was not downgrading her degree, she was simply acknowledging that the RN's salary was 'GOOD' for a 2 year degree, and this is true.

    Some things are just what they are and don't need further interpretation and the pharmacy tech's comments have been picked apart, and it was a comment she just said in passing.

    I just don't see how you can point out the 'inaccuracy', as you describe it, to anyone in a conversation without looking like a "degree snob". Again, this isn't done on any other education level or with any other major. Nursing is by no means the only profession where misconceptions exist about it. There are many different levels of designations to many other professions:

    Every accountant is not a CPA.
    Every law school graduate, is not a lawyer.
    For years, people thought if you were an engineer, you worked on a train.
    Dentists, are always in a separate catagories from doctors, but they are in fact, doctors.
    Most people don't know the difference between a Nurse Anethetist and an Anesthesiologist, and I hear every day, people using the term for the MDA for a CRNA.

    I could go on....

    I just feel that if you have the need to go through life correcting everyone that makes a minor error in your education level, that it's a symptom of another problem. When I am done with my education, as long as I have the training to be the best Registered Nurse that I possibly can, in the end, is all that matters.

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