Who thinks this school is jumping the gun on the DNP?

[justme1972]

I have been working for the last few months trying to "map out" where I am going to receive my BSN and NNP, b/c I don't want any suprises when it comes time to apply for these programs.

I also have to be sure to establish a residency in the state that I am moving to so I don't pay out-of-state tuition.

Univeristy of Tennessee of Health Sciences, I called them yesterday regarding their NNP program and was excited to find it was offered online (and a state I was considering moving to when I am done here).

However, before I got off the phone, they asked, "When are you graduating?" and I said, "Not for awhile, I'm a new student but just trying to plan."

They said that starting in 2008, they are phasing out all of their advanced practice nursing programs, you would go from a BSN to a DNP.

That sounds all fine and dandy, but it's 3 1/2 years of SCHOOL that I don't want to put in. There is a HUGE financial difference between working for 2 years to get the work requirement in, being in school for 20 months vs going for 3 1/2 years straight. I just have no desire to have a "doctorate".

Are they jumping the gun with this? I thought this was something that the ANA was tossing around but it ranked up there with having a BSN as a minimal requirement to be an RN...sounds great, but you need to have enough in the profession before you can "bump" the requrement.

Has anyone heard this at other schools?

[justme1972]

multi, this is the response that i got from east carolina when i sent them an email asking them (out of curiosity), why one major univeristy was dropping their msn programs and they were not....

sorry for my late response but i have been away. as for the dnp requirements, the dnp requirement as entry into practice is still being debated. there is a link to the national association of neonatal nurse practitioners (nannp) position statement on this topic. http://www.nann.org/files/public/positionstatementfinal.pdf i think the dnp will eventually be the entry requirement but we have a ways to go before making this so.

my advise, listen to what is being said but always go to the source to check things out for yourself.

garris keels conner, dsn, rn

associate professor

director, nnp program

east carolina university

so, what i have interpreted from the article that i read (the link works) is that the dnp as the entry appears to be area specific. in other words, the nannp, that certifies nnp's, is not requiring a dnp by 2015...however, that doesn't mean that hospitals won't require it, or that you won't have more difficulty finding a job b/c i would hate to be in a situation where i have an msn and a new grad dnp will knock me out of a job...which will most likely happen...i was thinking about that too.

one of the things that dr. bellflower at uths told me as that once you complete the prog:ram, you should be set..you will be able to teach at any university level (if you choose), run a department, etc.

their tuition is extremely reasonable at both of these schools..and here is something that uths offers that most other colleges do not:

if your state does not offer a dnp-nnp (or any other dnp specialty), they will automatically grant you in-state tuition. how cool is that?

mississippi and we believe virginia also, qualifies.

[Multicollinearity, BSN, RN]

Interesting. All of the MSN-NP programs near me are transitioning to DNP already, as they state they are terminating new enrollment in their MSN NP programs in spring 2008. I guess this is different in the NNP area. I want FNP.

About the tuition if your state doesn't offer NNP...FANTASTIC!!!

[core0]

We have a great deal in common. You are a bit ahead of me. I start nursing school in January. I've mapped out all of my coursework down to each and every class, and I'll graduate with my BSN in 2010. My goal is NP. This is why I'm in undergrad nursing school to begin with.

I, too, wanted to sneak in under the MSN/DNP border-time period and be grandfathered in. Just like you, all of the NP programs I'm looking at are terminating their MSN-NP programs in 2008 and going to DNP. I'm surprised at the swift movement to DNP. So I'm resigning myself to the notion that it'll just take longer and cost more to become an NP. I imagine at the end, we will be glad we got DNPs.

I just hope that NP earnings rise with the increased educational requirements to offset the additional tuition dollars. I'm looking at 4 years of full-time grad study for a DNP, at $60k in today's tuition dollars. This is paying in-state tuition at a public university.

Pharmacists' salaries shot up when they went to PharmD. So did physical therapists' when their educational requirements went to D.P.T. Here's hoping the rules of economics apply in nursing - because I'm mortgaging my future with student loans.

I think that you will be in for an unpleasant surprise if you think that this will lead to a significant increase in salaries. For DPT the salary is essentially the same as those with a Masters (at least it was in 2004). This is an article that discusses tuition as a function of starting salary:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3969/is_200410/ai_n9463167

For another perspective on practice doctorates:

http://chronicle.com/free/v52/i46/46b01201.htm

This largely mirrors what has been said here. The DPharm has been around for a long time. The article makes the point that a doctorate by itself will not increase salaries. Pharm salaries have increased but this is a reflection of the increase in retail pharmacies and increased use in the inpatient environment. According to one of their throw aways the difference between a BS and PharmD is $5000.

http://www.drugtopics.com/drugtopics/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=408159&sk=&date=&%0A%09%09%09&pageID=2

There are other factors at play in the NP market. There is a competitor that does not have to pay for a doctorate. There is also no incentive for an employer to higher a doctorate. It enables the NP to do nothing that they could not do with an MSN. Billing is similarly unaffected by the DNP. Overall I would not expect things to change.

David Carpenter, PA-C

[sirI, MSN, APRN, NP]

I have to agree with David on this.

NPs practicing now with less than MSN make as much as the ones with MSN, so I don't see DNP affecting salaries upward - at least not in the very near future.

And, I do see DNP as being the entry-level degree for the APN.

[Multicollinearity, BSN, RN]

I should have made my thoughts more clear. It's not that I'm hoping to make tons of money or for there to be a significant change in earnings. I don't think about the earnings all that much, meaning it's not my motivation, but it's a concern.

I'd just hope (one can hope, right, LOL) that earnings would increase even slightly to offset the increased expense of the DNP. Heck, if the mean NP salary increased 3-5k per year (adjusted for inflation) after the DNP requirement was in place after several years, I'd be happy.

Tuition dollars are increasing so rapidly - let alone the issue of an addition 1.5 years for the DNP. If this becomes too costly to become an NP - who will go to the expense?

[Multicollinearity, BSN, RN]

David,

Thank you for posting those articles. I just read them. I was incorrect when I said salaries "shot up" with the implementation of clinical doctorates.

[core0]

David,

Thank you for posting those articles. I just read them. I was incorrect when I said salaries "shot up" with the implementation of clinical doctorates.

Its a common misperception. There have been big gains in Pharm but its mostly due to the guild system that exists in retail pharmacy. The interesting part is they state that retail pays less than hospital. In my limited experience I have found the opposite. What I am guessing is happening is that retail salaries in rural areas are pulling down the retail salaries while not having as dramatic effect on the inpatient pharmacists.

PT is even worse. Within my medical career I have seen things go from "making lots of money" to "can't find a job" to "doing OK". They are very dependent on the vagaries of Medicare. Probably more than any other provider.

David Carpenter, PA-C

[Multicollinearity, BSN, RN]

Its a common misperception. There have been big gains in Pharm but its mostly due to the guild system that exists in retail pharmacy. The interesting part is they state that retail pays less than hospital. In my limited experience I have found the opposite. David Carpenter, PA-C

Yes. In my area, retail pharmacies are offering new grad PharmDs six figures.

[justme1972]

Yes. In my area, retail pharmacies are offering new grad PharmDs six figures.

I can second this...I live in hickville, USA, and the local "big box" pharmacies are paying $100 to $125K starting salary...but there is a kicker...that is all you are probably going to make until you gain enough experience to run a district.

I have family that lives in North Carolina...within the last 5 or so years, they have went from a Masters program in Pharmacy to a Doctorate-only and grandfathered all of the Masters-level pharmacists in...I have heard that the PharmD's get paid significantly more, but have never actually met someone or read something that can confirm that.

[prairienp]

i have to agree with david on this.

nps practicing now with less than msn make as much as the ones with msn, so i don't see dnp affecting salaries upward - at least not in the very near future.

and, i do see dnp as being the entry-level degree for the apn.

i agree that the dnp will be the entry level for the fnp, maybe the anp, pnp, gnp. less likely for the nnp. the midwife and crna are all over the place, things will settle for those two after a year or two.

i do see the dnp np salaries going up faster as compared to the ms prepared nps. this will be a great research project for a future dnp student.

i am not sure, but i suspect organizations such as the va and other government agencies will pay their nps more with a higher education. once the va and others are paying more (if my assumption is true) others may follow.

[ILoveIceCream]

i agree that the dnp will be the entry level for the fnp, maybe the anp, pnp, gnp. less likely for the nnp. the midwife and crna are all over the place, things will settle for those two after a year or two.

i do see the dnp np salaries going up faster as compared to the ms prepared nps. this will be a great research project for a future dnp student.

i am not sure, but i suspect organizations such as the va and other government agencies will pay their nps more with a higher education. once the va and others are paying more (if my assumption is true) others may follow.

why do you think dnp is most likely to be the required entry level degree for fnp but less likely for other specialties?

[prairienp]

why do you think dnp is most likely to be the required entry level degree for fnp but less likely for other specialties?

i am basing these thoughts on discussions with fnps in practice and at conferences. i lot of interest has been expressed by practicing fnps to return for the dnp. nonpf appears to be focused on the fnp competencies and the dnp agenda. in 20 years of listening and reading about the fnp i have never seen anything move so fast and with as much enthusiasm . the information i read on crna and midwife progression towards a dnp is much more cautious. i suspect some of this is secondary to the majority of these providers being in a tertiary setting. my assumptions about progression to the dnp are not fact based. in fact, my positive bias towards the dnp probably has tainted my views. i am using my 20+ years of active np practice guide my thoughts, which continue to suggest a positive outcome for the dnp.