Second ebola nurse "okay'd" to fly

calivianya, BSN, RN · Oct 16, 2014

Common sense anyone that cared for the Ebola patient should have been on quarantine for the 21 day incubation period and that would include not traveling and being around others. Hard to believe the CDC ok'd her travel plans. Did she go anyway figuring this might be my last chance to see them before I die if I get Ebola? I just wonder what she was thinking?

Really? So, the incubation for the flu is less than a week... so you should be on quarantine for a week after you take care of a flu patient? How about a C. diff patient? Those both kill a lot more people than Ebola, albeit at lower rates. You really think everyone who ever works with something dangerous should be quarantined? How about measles, since it's resurfacing in this country - that's even easier to catch since it's airborne, how long should a nurse who takes care of a measles patient be quarantined? Or a nurse who takes care of a TB patient?

We can't take people's lives away from them just because they went to work and took care of a sick patient - there should be some reason to quarantine someone, like a suspected exposure. There was no evidence this nurse was exposed.

ParalyticAgent · Oct 16, 2014

And common sense does not indicate that anyone who would take care of an ebola patient should be on 21 day monitoring. Common sense says that if you are being asked to take care of an ebola patient than you would be safe with training and equipment.

Following your logic, I should constantly be quarantined. Just last night in the ER I took care of a patient with strep throat, c-diff, a wound positive for MRSA, and an influenza patient.

RedWeasel, RN · Oct 16, 2014

NBC is reporting she may have been more symptomatic on the flight than previously reported. Another source said her illness was more progressed than Pham when diagnosed. Could she have been symptomatic gastrointestinally when she called the CDC and they said fly back anyway? Who knows but this is scary. The plane flew to Atlanta and Fort Lauderdale before airline was notified of the ebola diagnosis. After cleaning it twice the plane is back in service. Ig uess we will never ban flights (from wherever) with passengers from West Africa if we can't even keep a plane that transported an ebola patient out of service for a day.

MedChica · Oct 16, 2014

I was at the gym watching the news yesterday. Just in time to see Sanjay Gupta's head explode. Everyone on CNN basically called her an idiot. It got real, yesterday!! Today, too. Im watching Rohan Farrow, right now. Hes doing his best but that panel is tearing Dr Friendlin a new one. Over medical waste, PPE, adequate training, travel bans, self-reporting, etc...

That nurse shouldve exercised more caution, I'll say that. Had something of a high temp. 99.5...orally? High enough to have her call the CDC. Unless her temp regularly runs in that range, she really shouldve turned around and gone home. Waited to see if *other* s/s developed, maybe? Poor judgement.

Ebola was always a nasty bugger. Outbreaks were rather small and well contained but it seems...more contagious than it was when I first read about it in National Geo as a child. Maybe its my imagination?

Frankly, I'm surprised at the CDC. It's long handled outbreaks in other nations. Whats the difference now that its in the US? The woman had questions and sought advice from a "higher medical authority" who is supposed to have a more thorough understanding of - and experience dealing with - the illness. CDC said low grade fevers after Ebola exposure is nothing to worry about.

CDC said, "Fly, anyway."

I dont see much of a diff between that nurse and others.

Like everyone else has just been hanging out in their homes for days? Whatever. I dont see much of a difference between a contagious individual taking a 2 hour plane ride and a 20-90 min trip to the grocery store, convenience store, standing around at the bank or a 2 hour movie at the cineplex.

AdamantiteEnigma · Oct 17, 2014

I was at the gym watching the news yesterday. Just in time to see Sanjay Gupta's head explode. Everyone on CNN basically called her an idiot. It got real, yesterday!! Today, too. Im watching Rohan Farrow, right now. Hes doing his best but that panel is tearing Dr Friendlin a new one. Over medical waste, PPE, adequate training, travel bans, self-reporting, etc...
That nurse shouldve exercised more caution, I'll say that. Had something of a high temp. 99.5...orally? High enough to have her call the CDC. Unless her temp regularly runs in that range, she really shouldve turned around and gone home. Waited to see if *other* s/s developed, maybe? Poor judgement.
Ebola was always a nasty bugger. Outbreaks were rather small and well contained but it seems...more contagious than it was when I first read about it in National Geo as a child. Maybe its my imagination?
Frankly, I'm surprised at the CDC. It's long handled outbreaks in other nations. Whats the difference now that its in the US? The woman had questions and sought advice from a "higher medical authority" who is supposed to have a more thorough understanding of - and experience dealing with - the illness. CDC said low grade fevers after Ebola exposure is nothing to worry about.
CDC said, "Fly, anyway."
I dont see much of a diff between that nurse and others.
Like everyone else has just been hanging out in their homes for days? Whatever. I dont see much of a difference between a contagious individual taking a 2 hour plane ride and a 20-90 min trip to the grocery store, convenience store, standing around at the bank or a 2 hour movie at the cineplex.

I think a large part of the problem, MedChica, is Urbanization. Ebola infections were isolated in the past to more remote and smaller populations of people. People who did not routinely travel to large urban areas. That's all changed now. We live in a mobile, and highly connected global state at present. Just look at Nurse Vinson. It's believed that she traveled to Ohio to continue to plan her wedding with her family and fiancee. I also believe it to be reasonable to want to be with someone who you know cares for you following a period of heightened stress and uncertainty. And though I believe firmly that this was a poor decision, I am not her. It was indeed her decision to make. There were not adequate protocols (rules) in place to prevent her from doing so. I am a nurse as well. I would not have made that choice to travel anywhere. Yet we are where we are at present.

Mr. Duncan supposedly traveled to the US to visit his family, and see his son. These are expensive arrangements to make. Particularly expensive when you consider the median income of the average person in the region he traveled from. When I thought about this, I came to the conclusion that making those arrangements is something that can be equated to purchasing a brand new car without the benefit of financing. That's a rather lofty purchase to make for the average person here. It seems to me that when faced with the possibility of losing that opportunity, (due to his trying to assist a pregnant woman), he made a choice that many people in this country would have. Whether in Africa, The US, Europe, Canada, or wherever else - the majority of people in either case would have made similar choices.

And this is where a mild approach by government agencies have failed us imo. In every situation I am currently appraised of or familiar with different choices would have produced better outcomes. Personally, I'd like to shake Mr. Friedman and say eye to eye/face to face, "How's that working for ya?" Yet this would solve nothing. We need to deal with this situation as it stands. Before we do see an outbreak per the numbers.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Oct 17, 2014

After hanging around allnurses for all these years, I guess I shouldn't be shocked to see our membership leaping on the media bandwagon of "Let's Lynch The Nurse," but it still saddens me.

When Amber Vinson flew to Cleveland to see her family, Nina Pham hadn't been diagnosed, and she had no reason to believe she'd be in danger or a danger to others. Nurses take care of infectious diseases every day; some of those diseases kill people. MRSA, C. Diff, influenza -- all of those diseases kill people. When she flew BACK, there was reason to be concerned. So she did what any one of us critically thinking, responsible, experienced nurses would have done: she consulted experts. The experts told her she could fly home. Let's lynch them, and not each other.

I've seen numerous posts screaming that "Vinson should never have gotten on that plane!" and blaming her for making that choice. Vinson did what I would have done, what my husband would have done, what an EXPERIENCED nurse in her position would have done. When in doubt, consult an expert. THAT was good critical thinking, and that was the responsible choice. She placed her faith and her trust in the Center for Disease Control -- the agency that is supposed to know all about infectious disease, safety, pandemic precautions and protecting the public.

I'd like to think that most of the people blaming Vinson are newbies, wannabes and students and not experienced nurses with fully developed critical thinking skills, but I fear that is not the case. When the experts -- and that's what the CDC is supposed to be -- tell you that you're OK to fly on a commercial flight, then most nurses would believe them. And when the experts told Vinson she could fly, they became the ones to be be blamed for the spread of the infection. Vinson herself did the right thing.

Amber Vinson is fighting for her LIFE. She's in a hospital room somewhere, probably watching the media vilifying her and ripping apart her choices with perfect 20/20 hindsight. She may even be reading this thread as I'm posting on it. Is THIS what we want for our fellow nurse? Is THIS the memory we want her to carry forward in the fight of her life? We all know the media gets it wrong from time to time, or even much of the time. But we as nurses should be able to get it right. Put yourself in Amber's place, knowing only what she knew at the time, and think really hard about what you would do. Would you disrupt your entire life and quarantine yourself for 21 days if the experts told you there was little risk of your being infected? Would you REALLY? Because I don't see a whole lot of our membership being that self-sacrificing. It's easy to sit back now and claim that "she should have done it differently", but I don't think many of us would have been even AS responsible as Amber much less MORE responsible.

Let's stop blaming the true victims here and blame the experts, who should have been able to get it right the first time, and who ought to be responsible enough to take the blame rather than shifting it to someone who may well pay the ultimate price for THEIR mistake.

AdamantiteEnigma · Oct 17, 2014

I agree, Ruby Vee. The vilification, pitchforks, and torches absolutely need to cease in reference to *both* our compatriots in arms (fellow nurses) and Mr. Duncan.

It's very easy to second guess and blame someone in hindsight. Yet it's difficult to have the foresight to make a different decision based on their circumstances at the time. The failure resides with our leadership on the executive level. Cost saving is unequal to life saving.

Which is more important: balancing the books to the black this quarter, or, having a hospital with competent and ready staff to work for and with you?

Which is more desirable: enduring negative public opinion for a few weeks by imposing restrictions, or watching new suspected cases pop up daily?

Would you want to be the person to have to explain to the family of Nurse Pham or Nurse Vinson that we could have done more to protect them, but felt it was too expensive?

From speaking with a friend tonight after work, Texas Presby is headed quickly toward having no patients willing to go there. This is a world class hospital people!

ak2190 · Oct 17, 2014

To me, it seems as if the hospital (and the cdc) have vastly understated the risks of ebola. Now stories are coming out that nurses were told by supervisors that they didn't even need to wear masks! This very strongly points to the fact that up until Nina Pham was diagnosed with ebola, staff at that hospital probably had a false sense of security because everyone in a position of authority was continuously understating the amount of risk and how much preventative action needed to be taken. Think about it, if the ones in charge are telling me there's no need for masks and let's just use tape to cover up openings - I'm probably going to treat it like I do other contact precaution requiring bugs.

It was when the first nurse got ill that it came through to staff that they were at risk and that the disease was more transmissible than people were suggesting. So no wonder the second nurse flew to Ohio after caring for Duncan, how many of us would cancel planning our weddings after we cared for a patient with c.diff? That's the level of danger officials were projecting. After she developed a fever, she did call the cdc and they basically told her it was okay to fly.

TiffyRN, BSN, PhD · Oct 17, 2014

So she did what any one of us critically thinking, responsible, experienced nurses would have done: she consulted experts. The experts told her she could fly home. Let's lynch them, and not each other.
She placed her faith and her trust in the Center for Disease Control -- the agency that is supposed to know all about infectious disease, safety, pandemic precautions and protecting the public.
Vinson herself did the right thing.

Wow Ruby, this was so good and so on target.

Let's play pretend for a second. . . Nina never got sick, Amber's off in Ohio planning her wedding. . . She gets this 99.5 temp, no other symptoms, so she consults with the CDC. They tell her she's good to go. And let's pretend she's scheduled to work the next day (I know when I fly out of town I love to stay on vacation until the last minute!). She decides on her own, hey, I just want to be more careful than the CDC . Calls work and says, "Hey, sorry about that, I have no symptoms (except the temp of 99.5 which everyone knows outside the world of Ebola craziness means sqat). Think I'm just gonna stay out of work and not fly back to Dallas for now." How bad would you guys rip her for that?

I can hear it now. . .

"Calling out of work for 99.5?" "The CDC told her she was fine, somebody wasn't ready to come back from vacation!"

Lay off of Amber already. The girl is sick, she took care of an Ebola patient. Lots of blow hards on this board are out there swearing they would never care for an Ebola patient. I don't know about you, but almost nothing gets my goat worse than doing something above and beyond then getting ripped apart.

OCNRN63, RN · Oct 17, 2014

After hanging around allnurses for all these years, I guess I shouldn't be shocked to see our membership leaping on the media bandwagon of "Let's Lynch The Nurse," but it still saddens me.
When Amber Vinson flew to Cleveland to see her family, Nina Pham hadn't been diagnosed, and she had no reason to believe she'd be in danger or a danger to others. Nurses take care of infectious diseases every day; some of those diseases kill people. MRSA, C. Diff, influenza -- all of those diseases kill people. When she flew BACK, there was reason to be concerned. So she did what any one of us critically thinking, responsible, experienced nurses would have done: she consulted experts. The experts told her she could fly home. Let's lynch them, and not each other.
I've seen numerous posts screaming that "Vinson should never have gotten on that plane!" and blaming her for making that choice. Vinson did what I would have done, what my husband would have done, what an EXPERIENCED nurse in her position would have done. When in doubt, consult an expert. THAT was good critical thinking, and that was the responsible choice. She placed her faith and her trust in the Center for Disease Control -- the agency that is supposed to know all about infectious disease, safety, pandemic precautions and protecting the public.
I'd like to think that most of the people blaming Vinson are newbies, wannabes and students and not experienced nurses with fully developed critical thinking skills, but I fear that is not the case. When the experts -- and that's what the CDC is supposed to be -- tell you that you're OK to fly on a commercial flight, then most nurses would believe them. And when the experts told Vinson she could fly, they became the ones to be be blamed for the spread of the infection. Vinson herself did the right thing.
Amber Vinson is fighting for her LIFE. She's in a hospital room somewhere, probably watching the media vilifying her and ripping apart her choices with perfect 20/20 hindsight. She may even be reading this thread as I'm posting on it. Is THIS what we want for our fellow nurse? Is THIS the memory we want her to carry forward in the fight of her life? We all know the media gets it wrong from time to time, or even much of the time. But we as nurses should be able to get it right. Put yourself in Amber's place, knowing only what she knew at the time, and think really hard about what you would do. Would you disrupt your entire life and quarantine yourself for 21 days if the experts told you there was little risk of your being infected? Would you REALLY? Because I don't see a whole lot of our membership being that self-sacrificing. It's easy to sit back now and claim that "she should have done it differently", but I don't think many of us would have been even AS responsible as Amber much less MORE responsible.
Let's stop blaming the true victims here and blame the experts, who should have been able to get it right the first time, and who ought to be responsible enough to take the blame rather than shifting it to someone who may well pay the ultimate price for THEIR mistake.

Beautifully stated.

OCNRN63, RN · Oct 17, 2014

I particularly love the criticism coming from nurses with less than a year of experience. Really?

deenurse76 · Oct 17, 2014

I particularly love the criticism coming from nurses with less than a year of experience. Really?

Newbie nurse here and you'll get no criticism from me. Amber Vinson may very well lose her life because she trusted the people in charge and did her job to the best of her ability. She was told that she had the proper PPE to care for the patient, that her chances of contracting ebola were minimal and that she was okay to travel by the CDC! They are the professional specialists here! Why wouldn't she trust them? Had I been in her shoes, I would have too.

Especially because, using those critical nursing skills everyone keeps throwing out there, I can discern that the reason healthcare workers are at risk when caring for an ebola patient is specifically because we are caring for them through the latter stages of the disease with all the copious body fluids it produces. That alone sets a contrast between the risks posed to healthcare workers and the risks posed to the general public.

So, if the CDC tells us that we are LOW-RISK in spite of that, why wouldn't and shouldn't we believe them? They are the infectious disease experts, are they not? So why is Amber Vinson being vilified for following the directions of the people who should have known and DO know more than her on the subject? She did what she should have done...she deferred to the experts and sought their professional opinion. She contacted the CDC, reported her symptoms, and trusted what they told her...now she could very well die. Honestly, the fact that there are people on the sidelines calling for her nursing license and criminal action against her just makes me sick to my stomach.

Someone definitely dropped the ball here, but it was NOT Amber Vinson.